Re: [802SEC] Fwd: Re: Fw: [802SEC] Fw: New IEEE Standards Store
Geoff, I absolutely agree. Especially about clearly marking drafts vs standards. Under the current system, someone could go to buy a new draft and find that they received the old one. Pat
P.S., Xplore has its own problems with browse and search results - I've submitted comments to IEEE about those as well. They say they are working on them but they aren't getting fixed very fast.
-----Original Message-----
From: Geoff Thompson [mailto:thompson@ieee.org]
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 5:26 PM
To: Pat Thaler
Cc: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG; m.plessel@ieee.org
Subject: Re: [802SEC] Fwd: Re: Fw: [802SEC] Fw: New IEEE Standards Store
Pat-
My apologies about associating the new facility with eXplore. It is not
eXplore, I should have known better.
I believe I meant TechStreet.
I was using Apple Safari, not Internet Explorer. I did not have the
forever loading problem that you say you had.
RE:
> I think that there should be check boxes so that the user can say
whether to show drafts or superseded and withdrawn standards.
That lines up with what I strongly suggested to Markus, i.e. the default
search should only show ACTIVE standards
(i.e. standards that have been approved and published and have not been
superseded or withdrawn)
One should explicitly have to set a switch to search [superseded and
withdrawn]
One should explicitly have to set a switch to search [drafts]
(It might be reasonable though to have a specific URL which was
advertised as the access point to draft sales.)
Base standards should be listed at the top of the search
THEN the amendments and corrigenda
(Whether your get all of 802 or should select a particular standard is
something we didn't get into. I tend to favor the latter)
Published standards DO NOT currently have the "Std" included in their
designation. That needs to be added as well a "P" to the designation on
drafts.
As I have said several times, drafts need to include draft number and
issue data as well as expiration date and they need to be posted
automatically and without (process slowing) human intervention (24 hour
turnaround or 10% of a recirculation period is intolerable) by an
automated process linked to myBallot.
Geoff
On 25//11 11:53 AM, Pat Thaler wrote:
> Geoff,
>
> The feedback you gave is very similar to what I've given them. (I'm confused about why you call this the IEEE Xplore sales site - IEEE Xplore is the IEEE Electronic library site, not this one AFAIK.)
>
> However, when I click on 802(r) LAN/MAN/PAN, in Internet Explorer, it says "loading" forever. It works in Mozilla Firefox except that the list of documents it brings up is disorganized to the point of being useless. Since there are so many standards and drafts in IEEE 802, the tree should cover the different dots to get the user closer to the standard they want before providing a flat list. And of course I agree that it should bring up active standards at the top of the list, properly labeled with standard.
>
> I think that there should be check boxes so that the user can say whether to show drafts or superseded and withdrawn standards.
>
> The search function is pretty broken too. Apparently your search just got lucky in producing a reasonable result. Searching on Std 802.1 brings up one document - a draft of 802.1Q-Rev. It doesn't bring up any of the 802.1 approved standards even though there are several. Searching on just 802.1 brings up three documents - the 802.1Q draft again and 802.17 and 1733 standards.
>
> Searching on 802.1Q brings up the standard, below the listing for the draft. The amendments are listed which is good, but the list is a mix of approved amendments and draft amendments which is bad. The listing also says replaced by IEEE 802.1Q which is the listing for the IEEE 802.1Q-Rev draft. It shouldn't say that until the revision is approved and published.
>
> Regards,
> Pat
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List ***** [mailto:STDS-802-SEC@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Geoff Thompson
> Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2011 12:20 PM
> To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: [802SEC] Fwd: Re: Fw: [802SEC] Fw: New IEEE Standards Store
>
> Colleagues-
>
> I spent some time on the phone last Monday (4/26) with Marcus Plessel
> going over my critique of the IEEE Xplore sales site that I sent to
> Karen McCabe and all of you on 4/8.
>
> He was eager to show me that things have gotten better so we went
> through the items that I had pointed out.
> Following my earlier experience, we started at the top [
> _http://standards.ieee.org/store_ ] and clicked on [802(r) LAN/MAN/PAN] in
> the "Browse Catalog" area of the page.
>
> This opened a page down the following tree:
> View All Publishers> IEEE> Computer Engineering
>
> If you look under:
> View All Publishers> IEEE> Communication and Information
> (Which seems to me to be a perfectly reasonable thing for a naive user
> to do)
> you seem to be completely out of luck as far as 802 standards are concerned
> (i.e. the tree labels seem to actually be associated with sponsoring
> society rather than application area, again something not obvious to the
> naive user.)
>
> But performing a "Browse Catalog" of "802(r) LAN/MAN/PAN" still produced
> the same results as it had in my initial report.
> That is:
> The first 6 standards to come up (of 10 on page 1) were either
> WITHDRAWN or SUPERSEDED.
> The next 4 were either drafts or amendments
> I pointed out to Markus that I thought that this path in should bring up
> our currently active main standards at the top of the search.
> (e.g. 802.1D, 802.1Q, 802.1AB, 802.3, 802.11...)
>
> Further,
> - that the standards did not include "Std" in the title to
> differentiate them from drafts
> - The full title field was not of sufficient length to encompass
> our worst case titles and it truncated the title at the tail.
> (They shouldn't have to truncate, but truncating the head
> rather than the tail would actually preserve a higher level of usability.)
> - The drafts for sale had:
> - No draft number
> - No date
> - No expiration date
> We had an extended discussion about the timeliness of drafts for sale
> and he admitted that putting them into the "for sale"system was still a
> manual process.
> I reiterated my position of VERY long standing that:
> 0) A manual entry process by its nature introduces unacceptable
> delays into the process
> 1) All Sponsor Ballot drafts qualify for public sale
> 2) All Sponsor Ballot drafts need to be available for sale by the
> time the associated Sponsor Ballot opens
> 3) That the only reasonable way to achieve this is to make it a
> FULLY automated process of myBallot
>
> Markus claimed that some drafts were "not suitable for sale" without
> editorial intervention to redistill the PDF.
> I asserted that this was most certainly not true. Drafts for sale
> should be (and I would assert SHALL BE) exactly the same as what is
> presented for ballot via myBallot.
> Markus said that he would have to take that issue back for study by the
> "team".
> I got more than a little impatient at that point and said that these
> issues had been in study for far too long (I used terms like 10 years
> and 18 months) and it was time for staff to quit "studying", take
> action, commit resources and give us a commitment on when they will be
> fixed.
>
> We then went to a different page where it was hoped things would be better.
> I believe we used the search option and searched on either "802 or "Std 802"
> Using the latter search key we went to (I believe) 802.11 - 2007 as a
> reasonable example.
> It was VERY nice that it showed all of the amendments in the entry and
> that there was a hot link to each amendment or corrigendum.
> We discussed that the only "Get this standard" buttons were:
> "Buy CD Rom"
> "Buy Printed Edition"
> I was concerned that the primary means of acquisition, the "Get IEEE
> 802" access was not shown at all. I recognized the conflict of interest
> that a "for money" vendor would have in referencing free sales, but that
> still seems like a problem area to me. My suggestion was a single
> button that could be used in each applicable instance that was labeled
> "Available through Get IEEE 802 Program". My proposal was that any
> instance just go to: [http://standards.ieee.org/about/get/] which is
> close enough for free.
>
> I would hope staff can get many of these issues resolved before the July
> meeting. I believe they badly need a quick turn-around set of testers
> (from us and other sponsors) as well as a significant commitment to put
> in changes on a short turn basis.
>
> Best regards,
> Geoff
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: Fw: [802SEC] Fw: New IEEE Standards Store
> Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 13:17:46 -0400
> From: m.plessel@ieee.org
> To: thompson@ieee.org
>
>
> Dear Geoff,
>
> Thanks again for your time and input today. I'll be sure to get back to
> you asap on the Xplore/Drafts re-distilling process and who were the key
> players that mandated the requirements.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Markus Plessel
> Information Management Manager, IEEE Standards
> 445 Hoes Lane
> Piscataway, NJ 08854
> PH: +1 732 562 3989
> C: +1 732 439 6004
> m.plessel@ieee.org
> http://standards.ieee.org<http://standards.ieee.org/>
>
> IEEE -- Advancing Technology for Humanity
>
>
> From: Geoff Thompson<thompson@ieee.org>
> To: m.plessel@ieee.org
> Cc: Geoff Thompson<thompson@ieee.org>
> Date: 04/26/2011 12:52 PM
> Subject: Re: Fw: [802SEC] Fw: New IEEE Standards Store
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Markus-
>
> Here is my contact information.
>
> Geoffrey O. Thompson
> Chair, IEEE 802.23 Emergency Services Working Group
>
> GraCaSI Standards Advisory Services
> 158 Paseo Ct.
> Mountain View, CA 94043-5286_
> __<thompson@ieee.org>_<mailto:thompson@ieee.org>
> +1.540.227.0059
>
> On 264//11 7:59 AM, _m.plessel@ieee.org_<mailto:m.plessel@ieee.org> wrote:
>
> Dear Geoff,
>
> I'm open this AM to discuss your feedback below, however, I don't have
> your contact info. Can you pass me your phone number and a preferred
> time of day?
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Markus Plessel
> Information Management Manager, IEEE Standards
> 445 Hoes Lane
> Piscataway, NJ 08854
> PH: +1 732 562 3989
> C: +1 732 439 6004_
> __m.plessel@ieee.org_<mailto:m.plessel@ieee.org>_
> __http://standards.ieee.org_<http://standards.ieee.org/>
>
> IEEE -- Advancing Technology for Humanity
>
> From: Geoff Thompson _<thompson@ieee.org>_<mailto:thompson@ieee.org>
> To: _m.plessel@ieee.org_<mailto:m.plessel@ieee.org>
> Cc: _C.Haberle@ieee.org_<mailto:C.Haberle@ieee.org>, Walter Pienciak
> _<w.pienciak@ieee.org>_<mailto:w.pienciak@ieee.org>, Geoff Thompson
> _<thompson@ieee.org>_<mailto:thompson@ieee.org>
> Date: 04/20/2011 06:46 PM
> Subject: Re: Fw: [802SEC] Fw: New IEEE Standards Store
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Markus-
>
> I just rechecked "my experience" and things seem to come up the same way
> they did on my initial try.
> I would be happy to discuss things with you.
> I expect to be nominally available throughout the business day, West
> Coast time for the rest of the week.
> (I am often out of the house at lunch time)
> I have a RAC call Thursday 10 AM Pacific time.
> I will be on the East Coast for a week starting next Wednesday.
>
> Best regards,
> Geoff
>
> On 204//11 9:47 AM, _m.plessel@ieee.org_<mailto:m.plessel@ieee.org> wrote:
>
> Dear Geoff,
>
> Thank you for your feedback on the Standards Store and for the annotated
> attachment. Since the launch of the Standards Store, we have made many
> data fixes/updates and would like to have a quick walk-through of your
> experience below. This will give us a chance to hear your concerns and
> expectations explicitly and answer any questions.
>
> Please let me know what your availability is this week, if not next week.
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Markus Plessel
> Information Management Manager, IEEE Standards
> 445 Hoes Lane
> Piscataway, NJ 08854
> PH: +1 732 562 3989
> C: +1 732 439 6004_
> __m.plessel@ieee.org_<mailto:m.plessel@ieee.org>_
> __http://standards.ieee.org_<http://standards.ieee.org/>
>
> IEEE -- Advancing Technology for Humanity
> From: Karen Mc Cabe/STDS/STAFF/US/IEEE
> To: Markus Plessel/STDS/STAFF/US/IEEE@IEEE
> Date: 04/08/2011 08:12 PM
> Subject: Fw: [802SEC] Fw: New IEEE Standards Store
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> ----- Forwarded by Karen Mc Cabe/STDS/STAFF/US/IEEE on 04/08/2011 08:08
> PM -----
> From: Geoff Thompson _<thompson@ieee.org>_<mailto:thompson@ieee.org>
> To: Paul Nikolich _<paul.nikolich@att.net>_<mailto:paul.nikolich@att.net>
> Cc: _STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG_
> <mailto:STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>, McCabe Karen
> _<k.mccabe@ieee.org>_<mailto:k.mccabe@ieee.org>
> Date: 04/08/2011 05:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [802SEC] Fw: New IEEE Standards Store
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Paul/Karen-
>
> My first shot at "browsing" did not portend well.
> I went to LAN/MAN/PAN and was supposedly in line to get a sort by "Most
> Popular"
> The results of my search were significantly different than expected and
> not in line with what I believe a customer would want.
> Please see a PDF (attached) of the returned search pages (to which I
> have annotated some comments)
>
> Geoff
>
> On 84//11 4:15 AM, Paul Nikolich wrote:
> > Dear EC Members,
> >
> > Please note the below message from Karen McCabe and give the store a
> try. Please provide feedback directly to Karen (_k.mccabe@ieee.org_
> <mailto:k.mccabe@ieee.org>) and copy me.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > --Paul
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: _k.mccabe@ieee.org_<mailto:k.mccabe@ieee.org>
> > To: Paul Nikolich
> > Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 9:24 PM
> > Subject: New IEEE Standards Store
> >
> >
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > The new IEEE Standards Store is live. You can check it out at:
> _http://standards.ieee.org/store_
> >
> > Thank you for "rounding up" a few IEEE 802 volunteers to test it.
> >
> > As we strive to fix our single sales challenges and provide a shop
> environment that meets the needs of standards customers, I look forward
> to working with the 802 community for its continued input and feedback!
> >
> > Karen
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Karen McCabe, CME
> > Staff Director, Strategic Marketing and Product Development
> > 445 Hoes Lane, PO Box 1331
> > Piscataway NJ 08855 USA
> > PH: +1 732 562 3824
> > email: _k.mccabe@ieee.org_<mailto:k.mccabe@ieee.org>
> > _http://standards.ieee.org_<http://standards.ieee.org/>
> > IEEE - Advancing Technology for Humanity
> >
> > ----------
> > This email is sent from the 802 Executive Committee email reflector.
> This list is maintained by Listserv.
> >
> >
> [attachment "IEEE SA - Standards Store | Browse Publisher.pdf" deleted
> by Markus Plessel/STDS/STAFF/US/IEEE]
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------
> This email is sent from the 802 Executive Committee email reflector. This list is maintained by Listserv.
>
>
>
>
----------
This email is sent from the 802 Executive Committee email reflector. This list is maintained by Listserv.