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Re: [802SEC] Governmental and standards body communication in the OM

In other words, the recommendations developed by ITU-T and ITU-R are all voluntary standards, in just the same way that ISO/IEC, IEEE (etc., etc.) standards are voluntary standards. The fact that some of them may become mandatory by virtue of some other process of adoption doesn't make them, or the working groups that develop them, any different from the ISO/IEC, IEEE (etc., etc.) working groups; as Geoff has observed, any standard has the potential to be converted to a mandatory standard if a regulatory or governmental body chooses to make it so.
OK, so there is a regulatory element in ITU-T; in that case, we need to interact with that regulatory element differently from the way we interact with the elements of the ITU that are simply concerned with the development of voluntary standards. 

Regards,
Tony

At 02:41 03/07/2008, Michael Lynch wrote:

Jose,
Thanks for the input. ITU-R recommendations that are incorporated by reference into the RR are mandatory. That is the purpose of incorporation by reference. It may only be elements of them that are included in the RR, but still they become mandatory. Yes, administraions include them in their rules; they have a treaty obligation to do so.
In ITU-T ITRs are mandatory as are the settlement rates. So there is a regulatory element in the ITU-T. 

Regards,

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: "Puthenkulam, Jose P" <jose.p.puthenkulam@INTEL.COM>
To: "STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG" <STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Sent: 7/2/08 20:11
Subject: Re: [802SEC] Governmental and standards body communication in the OM

Hi All,

Regarding ITU standardization aspects that become ITU-R or ITU-T
recommendations. Some things to note below:

I'm attaching an excerpt from the ITU-R web site

http://www.itu.int/publications/publications.aspx?lang=en&parent=R-REC&s
election=6&sector=1

"The ITU-R Recommendations are approved by ITU Member States. Their
implementation is not mandatory; however, as they are developed by
experts from administrations, operators, the industry and other
organizations dealing with radiocommunication matters from all over the
world, they enjoy a high reputation and are implemented worldwide."

Similarly from the ITU-T website another excerpt

http://www.itu.int/publications/sector.aspx?lang=en&sector=2

"Telecommunication Standardization Sector (ITU-T)

The main products of ITU-T are the Recommendations. At present, more
than 3,000 Recommendations (Standards) are in force. Recommendations are
standards that define how telecommunication networks operate and
interwork. ITU-T Recommendations are non-binding, however they are
generally complied with due to their high quality and because they
guarantee the interconnectivity of networks and enable telecommunication
services to be provided on a worldwide scale."

I'm not a legal expert, but I think the above language essentially makes
any ITU recommendations non-binding. However if a member state adopts
laws (or regulations) that require implementation of these
recommendations (for example like the US FCC that is part of the Govt),
it becomes legally binding in the member state.

Hope this helps the discussion.

Thanks & best regards,
jose


> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-stds-802-sec@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> [mailto:owner-stds-802-sec@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG] On Behalf Of
> Sherman, Matthew J. (US SSA)
> Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 2:30 PM
> To: Grow, Bob; STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: Re: [802SEC] Governmental and standards body
> communication in the OM
>
> Bob / all,
>
> Ultimately if ITU enforces international compliance with
> recommendations, they are really regulations, not standards.
> I'm not sure what the case is for Ethernet.
>
> I believe the current IEEE802 rules in this regards are (per new OM):
>
> (For standards body)  WG communications with external
> standards bodies that are not "Information Only" should be
> copied to affected members of the EC.
>
> (for government body)  WG or TAG communications with
> government bodies shall not be released without prior
> approval by 75% of the WG or TAG.
> Such communications may proceed unless blocked by an EC vote.
> For statements not presented for review in an EC meeting, EC
> members shall have a review period of at least five days; if,
> during that time, a motion to block it is made, release of
> the statement will be withheld.
>
> If people don't like these rules (or don't plan to follow
> them) they really should be changed.  If ITU-T is a
> 'standards body' we are probably fine.  If a regulatory body
> (as some suggest) then we have a problem.
>
> Personally if something has the potential to be enforced by a
> regulatory domain I believe approval by the EC is best.
>
> Mat
>
>
>
> Matthew Sherman, Ph.D.
> Engineering Fellow
> BAE Systems -  Network Systems (NS)
> Office: +1 973.633.6344
> Cell: +1 973.229.9520
> email: matthew.sherman@baesystems.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List *****
> [mailto:STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG] On Behalf Of Grow, Bob
> Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 3:24 PM
> To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: Re: [802SEC] Governmental and standards body
> communication in the OM
>
> Pat, Mike:
>
> It certainly hasn't be the practice of 802.3 to go through
> the EC on Ethernet matters from ITU-T.  802.3 has received
> occasional direct requests for consideration of technical
> features, to give or receive advice on Ethernet features, to
> discuss usage of EtherTypes and similar things Ethernet.  A
> recent area of interaction has been on 40 Gb/s and 100 Gb/s
> Ethernet (e.g., mapping those interfaces to OTN).  All
> communications were clearly from and to 802.3, or in some
> cases under the informal communications encouraged for
> subgroups between an ITU-T subgroup and HSSG/P802.3ba.
>
> I doubt the EC wants to see and approve those kind of communications.
>
> --Bob
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List *****
> [mailto:STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG] On Behalf Of Michael Lynch
> Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 1:57 PM
> To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: Re: [802SEC] Governmental and standards body
> communication in the OM
>
> Pat,
>
> I've been looking at this and maybe it would be good to
> provide some definition of both what the ITU is and what it
> does. Also the process that IEEE SA has in place to deal with
> inputs to ITU-R, ITU-T and ITU-D.
>
>
> All of the ITU is an intergovernmental organization. The
> terms of reference for the ITU are defined in the
> Constitution and Convention
> (CS/CV) by the Member States. Sector Members and Associate
> Members are permitted to join and participate but companies
> joining are required to have Member State approval. Some may
> see ITU-T as an SDO which is logical but it is still
> controlled by Member States. Some may view the ITU-R as being
> only regulatory in nature but that is just one of its roles.
>
> ITU-T may create standards which are called recommendations.
> But there is regulatory work done there, at least in the
> realm of setting telecom settlement rates and the
> International Telecommunication Regulations (ITRs).  Both of
> those are certainly a Member State matters and it is expected
> that there will be a revision of the ITRs done in the next
> year or two. Member States are able to block the approval of
> ITU-T recommendations. IEEE SA has a technical liaison to
> ITU-T who should function the same as I do in my role as the
> technical liaison between the SA and ITU-R.
>
> ITU-R does have a regulatory function and creates a treaty
> known as the Radio Regulations (RR). It also creates
> recommendations that identify standards from outside of ITU-R
> for specific purposes, e.g. IMT.
> Additionally it creates recommendations that are not based on
> other SDO's standards. For example the recommendation from
> SG1 (SM.329) on oob emissions. The 2003 World
> Radiocommunication Conference (WRC) took text from that
> recommendation and included it in Appendix 3 of the RR. Other
> recommendations have been incorporated by reference in the RR
> which makes them mandatory. So ITU-R should also be seen as a
> SDO in addition to being a global regulatory body.
>
> I would suggest that both ITU-T and ITU-R be treated in the
> same manner, that is as intergovernmental bodies. If indeed
> the IEEE SA ITU-T liaison functions in the same manner as the
> liaison for ITU-R then ITU-T inputs should be handled by that
> person. It seems unlikely that IEEE 802 inputs would have a
> regulatory impact in ITU-T but should be considered and
> approved by the EC just as inputs to ITU-R are done, the
> latter of course after approval by 802.18.
>
> Hopefully this is some help. It seems we will have an
> interesting Sunday evening in Denver.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mike
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Pat Thaler [mailto:pthaler@broadcom.com]
> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 20:52
> To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG; Lynch, Michael (RICH1:2T00)
> Subject: Governmental and standards body communication in the OM
>
>
> Mike,
>
> An issue arose during the comment resolution meeting on which we would
> like your input.
>
> We have separate procedures for communications with other standards
> bodies and with governmental and intergovernmental bodies but in the
> past there has been some confusion regarding the ITU because
> it involves
> aspects of both. I would like to avoid having to figure out which rule
> applies in the heat of the moment. Is there some clarification that we
> can add to the P&P to distinguish the two? For example, the portion of
> ITU that regulates spectrum use vs the standards making in ITU-R and
> ITU-T?
>
> The comment reference is 135.
>
> Regards,
> Pat
>
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