Re: [802SEC] FW: Software and Treasury concerns
Geoff,
Yes, IEEE 802.3 has had an electronic data base since I was became chair
- I think that was 1990 when 10BASE-T was almost done. The earliest
version was based on long gone software that came on early HP PCs (kind
of cute - the interface was made to look like a Rolex file). Only the
data entry part is manual.
I think the difference is that some (all?) of the wireless groups
collect attendence data on a 2-hour time slot granularity rather than
group size. I think peak 802.3 attendence was two to three hundred
people per meeting and the book was fine given a half day or day
granularity. But getting a book circulated every 2-hours would probably
break down the system.
Regards,
Pat
-----Original Message-----
From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List *****
[mailto:STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG] On Behalf Of Geoff Thompson
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 11:36 PM
To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [802SEC] FW: Software and Treasury concerns
Harry-
Your understanding is not correct.
Your statement:
"To my understanding, every group except for IEEE 802.16 and 20 has used
the stated commercial software. (i.e. IEEE IT software)
is not correct.
I can not speak for other groups but I will speak for Bob Grow and 802.3
as Bob is on holiday. I know that 802.3 has used database rooted systems
for contact information and attendance since the 1980s. Pat Thaler had a
system based on (as I understood it at the time) an proprietary database
system available internally at H-P. When I became Chair of 802.3 I
developed a system in a commercially available database "Filemaker" (now
FileMaker Pro). That system evolved and has continued in use to this
day. It could be converted to a attendee/user interface without a great
degree of difficulty but we have not been driven to do so. Our system
prints out attendance book sheets and supports easy data entry from the
books. The database has attendance and contact information records for
over 3800 different people over a period of greater than 12 years
I suspect that Bob would be willing to go to a new more automated system
(you can ask him when he is available again) but to the best of my
knowledge, it is not a high priority for 802.3.
I don't know whether Bob would support or urge the membership of 802.3
to support any significant expenditure of 802 funds for a replacement
system.
You'll have to ask him.
Geoff Thompson
At 06:59 PM 11/5/2006 , Stuart J. Kerry wrote:
+++ FORWARDED ON BEHALF OF HARRY WORSTELL PER HIS REQUEST +++
_____
From: Worstell,Harry R (Harry)
Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2006 3:01 PM
To: STDS-802-SEC@listserv.ieee.org
Cc: paul.nikolich@ATT.NET; k.kenney@ieee.org;
wpiencia@thunderdome.ieee.org; Bob Labelle
Subject: Software and Treasury concerns
Dear IEEE 802 Executive Committee,
I am writing to you as an IEEE 802.11 voting member to object to the
misrepresentation and half truths in the emails sent by Dr Heile and
Rick Alfvin, copied below, in regards to the attendance collection at
the November 2006 Plenary session. Mr. Alfvin has stated in his email
"The IEEE system originally tested for .11 and tested by other wireless
groups in Melbourne. Although this system is currently available at no
charge, it lacks security, authentication and an administrative
interface to modify the database during the session to make corrections.
The system also lacks a feedback mechanism allowing an attendee to
monitor his accrued percentage of attendance. The IEEE openly
acknowledges the shortcomings of the interface, and has stated that this
is a throwaway stop gap solution."
The IEEE IT software was and is intended to be a stop-gap solution for
the IEEE 802.11 Working Group as they were, due to the size of the
group, unable to meet the requirements of the IEEE 802 Policies and
Procedures without an automated attendance solution. This system was NOT
tested and never intended to be tested as a solution to the problems
with attendance collection for other 802 groups. The software needs were
never offered for bid to any other venders per IEEE policies by the IEEE
EC and yet in his email he states "*Note: Unless this solution is
adopted by 802, it may not be available in the future......so, if you
haven't used it before, this may be your last chance to try it and form
your own opinion of its value to 802.*. No other vendors have had a
chance to offer any other options and no competitive bidding has been
done. To my understanding, every group except for IEEE 802.16 and 20 has
used the stated commercial software.
I will reemphesize that the IEEE IT software was and is intended to be a
stop-gap solution for the IEEE 802.11 Working Group as they were, due to
the size of the group, unable to meet the requirements of the IEEE 802
Policies and Procedures without an automated attendance solution.
The IEEE-SA Electronic Services Group provided this software solution
until the IEEE 802 EC could come to agreement and provide a COMPLETE
solution for the problem, which they have not done yet. The IEEE IT
group has also been working on a complete solution that they will offer
the IEEE
802 group for free or at a minimum expenditure as they have stated. They
have also provided stop-gap back-end processing that I believe was not
used by any other group other than IEEE 802.11. It also is tied to the
registration using the Member ID numbers of the IEEE 802 group. It was
never meant to be secure or final a solution and has been a real asset
to the IEEE 802.11 Working Group in our situation and I thank them for
their great work. It is certainly as secure than the paper method we
have used for the last 10 years and it is free!
We have found that the IEEE 802.11 member ID numbers are changing on a
regular basis and the organizers registration software is not catching
these changes which are causing problems with post processing of
attendance and letter ballots. We have had 3 to 10 members with
different numbers at every session. These numbers should never change
for any individual.
Dr. Hiele has stated in an email copied below "My expectation that there
will be no 802 groups outside of 11,15,18, 19, 20, 21 and 22 who will
express any interest in using any of the two electronic systems and that
we will have to handle this our of the wireless treasury if we want to
take advantage of the more user friendly Azgaard system." First of all
the treasury is NOT the wireless treasury. It is the Joint Treasury of
IEEE
802.11 and IEEE 802.15.
Dr. Heile has also stated in the email below that "Please also signify
whether you will support the expenditure of funds from the wireless
treasury for the Azgaard system ( my guess is it would cost between
$600-800 if it were used by 15, 20, 21 and 22). " Mr. Alfvin states that
"The Azgard system, which is a commercial application, is being offered
for use by IEEE 802 during the Dallas session for a minimum fee of $500
or $2/user, whichever is greater." If the wireless groups all us this
software, the expenditures could far exceed the estimates from Dr.
Hiele.
As this is an 802.11/15 joint treasury per IEEE 802 Policies and
Procedures, the members of each group must vote on any expenditure of
this kind. The Chair of the IEEE 802.11 Working Group has already stated
in an email copied below that " Well being forced to be the bad guy
here, I am informing you all the 802.11 WG is fully committed to the
IEEE attendance approach as previously stated, and to that end will be
using it in its interim form for the Dallas session. This decision is
until either mandated by the 802 EC or IEEE and therefore that is the
choice that my WG is using for attendance collection." He also stated
that "Finally, under the joint treasury of 802.11 and 802.15 I vote no
for the provision of funds for this
802 EC sponsored November Plenary session in Dallas. Later events are
not covered under my negative vote for this session. ", which means that
the IEEE 802.11 group does not support any expenditure of monies out of
the Joint IEEE 802.11/15 treasury. Also, this being a Plenary session,
it is up to the IEEE 802 EC to fund such expenditures, not the working
groups or TAGs.
Finally, I, as an IEEE 802.11 voting member in good standing, object to
any further back-door politics and misinformation to be dispersed by any
member of the Executive Committee and that the 802 Executive Committee
follow their IEEE 802 Polices and Procedures and the IEEE policies now
and in the future.
Regards,
Harry Worstell
Attachment:
_____
From: Bob Heile [mailto:bheile@ieee.org]
Sent: Sun 10/29/2006 9:04 PM
To: stuart.kerry@nxp.com; bheile@ieee.org; mjlynch@nortel.com;
shellhammer@ieee.org; a.greenspan@ieee.org; greenspana@bellsouth.net;
vivek.g.gupta@INTEL.COM; wk3c@wk3c.com
Cc: Worstell,Harry R (Harry); john.barr@motorola.com;
apetrick@widefi.com; alfvin@ieee.org
Subject: Fwd: [802SEC] Attendance Collection in Dallas
Gentlemen
Those of you on the EC reflector have already seen Rick's email. My
expectation that there will be no 802 groups outside of 11,15,18, 19,
20, 21 and 22 who will express any interest in using any of the two
electronic systems and that we will have to handle this our of the
wireless treasury if we want to take advantage of the more user friendly
Azgaard system.
Per Rick' request please let this group know ASAP if you want to use one
or the other or none. Please also signify whether you will support the
expenditure of funds from the wireless treasury for the Azgaard system (
my guess is it would cost between $600-800 if it were used by 15, 20, 21
and 22). A majority of us is needed to support this if we are to do it.
That does not mean you have to use it. 15 would very much like to use
the Azgaard system since it is a much more robust system, automatically
deals with deadbeats and requires substanstially less post processing.
Bob
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 13:37:17 -0400
Reply-To: Rick Alfvin <alfvin@IEEE.ORG>
From: Rick Alfvin <alfvin@IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [802SEC] Attendance Collection in Dallas
The Dallas IEEE 802 plenary meeting is quickly approaching and we need
to determine what our attendance collection options are for this
session. As vice-chair of 802.15, I am responsible for 802.15 attendance
collection. As far as I am aware, there are three options available to
all working groups.
1. Manual methods. Labor intensive and viable for some of the smaller
groups. Generally not a desired or preferred approach.
2. The IEEE system originally tested for .11 and tested by other
wireless groups in Melbourne. Although this system is currently
available at no charge, it lacks security, authentication and an
administrative interface to modify the database during the session to
make corrections. The system also lacks a feedback mechanism allowing an
attendee to monitor his accrued percentage of attendance. The IEEE
openly acknowledges the shortcomings of the interface, and has stated
that this is a throwaway stop gap solution.
3. The Azgaard system originally tested by .15 and tested by other
wireless groups in San Diego. This system provides authentication tied
to the registration database (so only paid attendees can log attendance
credit), security in the form of unique user/password restricted access,
immediate user feedback showing the percentage of accrued session
attendance credit and an administrative interface which allows an admin
to modify records during the event (e.g. if an attendee forgot to sign
in to a meeting and needed to have his attendance record corrected.)
*Note: Unless this solution is adopted by 802, it may not be available
in the future......so, if you haven't used it before, this may be your
last chance to try it and form your own opinion of its value to 802.*
If you wish to use the IEEE system, I recommend you contact Walter
Pienciak
*wpiencia@thunderdome.ieee.org* <wpiencia@thunderdome.ieee.org>.
If you wish to use the Azgaard system (my preference), please reply to
this email. The Azgard system, which is a commercial application, is
being offered for use by IEEE 802 during the Dallas session for a
minimum fee of $500 or $2/user, whichever is greater. This fee will have
to be approved by either the 802 Wireless Groups Executive Committee or
the IEEE SEC. I will pass along your choice to use this approach to both
the 802SEC and 802Wireless SEC.
--
Rick Alfvin
Vice Chair IEEE 802.15
+1 585.781.0952
----------
This email is sent from the 802 Executive Committee email reflector.
This list is maintained by Listserv.
Bob Heile, Ph.D
Chairman, ZigBee Alliance
Chair, IEEE 802.15 Working Group on Wireless Personal Area Networks
11 Louis Road
Attleboro, MA 02703 USA
Mobile: +1-781-929-4832
email: bheile@ieee.org
_____
From: Stuart Kerry [mailto:stuart.kerry@nxp.com]
Sent: Sun 10/29/2006 11:08 PM
To: alfvin@ieee.org
Cc: apetrick@widefi.com; a.greenspan@ieee.org; bheile@ieee.org;
greenspana@bellsouth.net; Worstell,Harry R (Harry);
john.barr@motorola.com; mjlynch@nortel.com; shellhammer@ieee.org;
stuart.kerry@nxp.com; vivek.g.gupta@INTEL.COM; wk3c@wk3c.com;
b.labelle@ieee.org; p.nikolich@ieee.org
Subject: Re: Fwd: [802SEC] Attendance Collection in Dallas
Rick,
Well being forced to be the bad guy here, I am informing you all the
802.11 WG is fully committed to the IEEE attendance approach as
previously stated, and to that end will be using it in its interim form
for the Dallas session.
This decision is until either mandated by the 802 EC or IEEE and
therefore that is the choice that my WG is using for attendance
collection.
Finally, under the joint treasury of 802.11 and 802.15 I vote no for the
provision of funds for this 802 EC sponsored November Plenary session in
Dallas. Later events are not covered under my negative vote for this
session.
/ Stuart
_______________________________
Stuart J. Kerry
Chair, IEEE 802.11 WLANs WG
NXP Semiconductors,
1109 McKay Drive, M/S 48A SJ,
San Jose, CA 95131-1706,
United States of America.
+1 (408) 474-7356 - Phone
+1 (408) 474-5343 - Fax
+1 (408) 348-3171 - Cell
eMail: stuart.kerry@nxp.com
_______________________________
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This email is sent from the 802 Executive Committee email reflector.
This list is maintained by Listserv.
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This email is sent from the 802 Executive Committee email reflector.
This list is maintained by Listserv.
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This email is sent from the 802 Executive Committee email reflector. This list is maintained by Listserv.