Re: [802SEC] "Get IEEE 802" comments

["Mike Takefman (tak)" <tak@CISCO.COM>]

Bob, 

true enough, it was a shame that this couldn't be brought up
when we had the president of the IEEE sitting there. Perhaps
a well placed phone call from our illustrious chair might
help bring some sense to the situation.

In response to roger, I agree not everyone has a credit card,
other means of payment are possible as well. And frankly, 
if the $ are set low enough, I don't see it as a huge burden
and certainly not one where the amount involved is really
going to stop someone doing the download.

cheers, 

mike

-------------------------------------------

Michael Takefman              tak@cisco.com
Distinguished Engineer,       Cisco Systems
Chair IEEE 802.17 Stds WG
3000 Innovation Dr, Ottawa, Canada, K2K 3E8
voice: 613-254-3399       cell:613-220-6991 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Grow, Bob [mailto:bob.grow@INTEL.COM] 
> Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 12:50 PM
> To: STDS-802-SEC@listserv.ieee.org
> Subject: Re: [802SEC] "Get IEEE 802" comments
> 
> Mike:
> 
> I understand what you say, but remember who owns the 
> copyright.  It isn't IEEE 802, it isn't IEEE-SA it is IEEE.  
> We have to admit there is no quick legal way to fix it 
> ourselves, we can't sell something we don't own.
> 
> --Bob 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Takefman (tak) [mailto:tak@cisco.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 9:28 AM
> To: Grow, Bob; STDS-802-SEC@listserv.ieee.org
> Subject: RE: [802SEC] "Get IEEE 802" comments
> 
> Or to be a **** disturber, find another way to fulfill the 
> delivery of GET802. I bet 802 could find a very economic way 
> to distribute and charge for pdf downloads, get the money 
> into our own bank account and then give IEEE-SA a check along 
> with our per attendee fee.
> 
> In fact, it might work so well, we can decrease our per attendee fee.
> 
> So its in IEEE's interest to fix their problem, lest we fix 
> it ourself.
> 
> cheers, 
> 
> mike
> 
> -------------------------------------------
> 
> Michael Takefman              tak@cisco.com
> Distinguished Engineer,       Cisco Systems
> Chair IEEE 802.17 Stds WG
> 3000 Innovation Dr, Ottawa, Canada, K2K 3E8
> voice: 613-254-3399       cell:613-220-6991 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Grow, Bob [mailto:bob.grow@INTEL.COM]
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 11:58 AM
> > To: STDS-802-SEC@listserv.ieee.org
> > Subject: Re: [802SEC] "Get IEEE 802" comments
> > 
> > Our discount rate and fees last time I checked are below 
> the amounts 
> > quoted below for our registration merchant account.
> > Part of that low rate is because of the large average transaction 
> > amount, but even if the transaction amount is small, 
> discount and fees 
> > are only a fraction of the $25 charged to IEEE-SA for fulfillment.  
> > Any of you can do the math on one of John's financial 
> reports to see 
> > what our credit card processing costs are now.  The credit card 
> > discount and fees are not the problem here.
> > 
> > As was discussed at the 802 Chair's meeting on this topic, 
> the problem 
> > is an IEEE policy that mandates that IEEE-SA use an 
> internal resource 
> > for fulfillment that carries a charge $25.  I have no idea 
> if the $25 
> > is the real cost of the service or even the burdened cost, 
> or if there 
> > is significant margin in the $25 charge that flows to IEEE.  If I 
> > recall the discussion correctly, using any other service requires 
> > approval of the IEEE board.
> > 
> > IEEE-SA staff heard plenty of complaint and suggestions for 
> > alternative services during the Chair's meeting.  The 
> challenge isn't 
> > to find an economical way to do fulfillment on pdf sales, 
> it is to get 
> > acknowledgement and action from IEEE that the current 
> internal service 
> > and rate is not competitive and IEEE needs to change policy so that 
> > IEEE-SA can be competitive.
> > 
> > --Bob Grow
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Rick Alfvin [mailto:alfvin@ieee.org]
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 6:56 AM
> > To: STDS-802-SEC@listserv.ieee.org
> > Subject: Re: [802SEC] "Get IEEE 802" comments
> > 
> > If that is the source of the charge, I can offer up links to well 
> > establsihed credit card processing services that charge a 
> transaction 
> > fee of $0.30 plus 2.9% of the charge. This would reduce the 
> fee from 
> > $25 to
> > $0.45
> > per transaction.
> > 
> > On 3/15/06, Harry Worstell <hworstell@research.att.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Carl,
> > >
> > > The $25 cost is the processing fee for the credit card for
> > the $5 down
> > > load.
> > >
> > > Harry
> > >
> > >
> > > Harry R. Worstell
> > > Sr. Technical Specialist
> > > Communications Technology Research
> > > AT&T Labs - Shannon Laboratory
> > > Vice Chair, IEEE 802.11 Working Group Room B233, Building 103 180 
> > > Park Avenue P.O. Box 971 Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971
> > > Phone: +1 (973) 236-6915
> > > Cell  +1(973) 727-5564
> > > Fax: +1 (973) 360-5873
> > > EMAIL: hworstell@research.att.com
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Carl R. Stevenson [mailto:wk3c@WK3C.COM]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 3:58 AM
> > > To: STDS-802-SEC@listserv.ieee.org
> > > Subject: Re: [802SEC] "Get IEEE 802" comments
> > >
> > > I don't think it's acceptable to increase our participants' 
> > cost for
> > > supporting the program beyond where it is now.
> > >
> > > As I tried to discuss, but there wasn't time during the Friday EC 
> > > meeting in Denver, I just can't understand how it "costs" $25 to
> > fulfill
> > > a .pdf download. (I may have misunderstood, but my
> > understanding was
> > > that was the reason stated as to why a nominal (say $5) 
> charge per 
> > > download from Get 802 "wasn't a viable option" to further
> > support the
> > > program without increasing our participants' per meeting session
> > costs.
> > >
> > > As I said, it seems to me that the incremental cost of a
> > .pdf download
> > > is negligible and I don't understand why simply changing
> > the price (to
> > > something like $5) 6 months after 802 standards are 
> published isn't 
> > > viable.
> > >
> > > I'd like to hear a good explanation of what I'm missing so
> > that I can
> > > understand it and we could see if we could figure out a way to fix
> > this.
> > >
> > > Carl
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Roger B. Marks [mailto:r.b.marks@ieee.org]
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 12:59 AM
> > > > To: STDS-802-SEC@listserv.ieee.org
> > > > Subject: [802SEC] "Get IEEE 802" comments
> > > >
> > > > Karen,
> > > >
> > > > Every time we discuss the Get IEEE 802 budget, it gets me to
> > thinking
> > > > about the program itself, and how it might be improved, or even 
> > > > maintained.
> > > >
> > > > So, I have the following comments:
> > > >
> > > > *The "Get IEEE 802 Program Agreement" says "Documents
> > subject to the
> > > > wait period will be listed on the website with a link to a site
> > where
> > > > the documents may be purchased." However, I don't see
> > such links at
> > > > the site:
> > > >       http://standards.ieee.org/getieee802
> > > > In fact, I don't ever recall seeing such links, even 
> though I've 
> > > > brought up this issue a few times over the years. There
> > is a pointer
> > > > to the IEEE Store, but that's not the same thing; the 
> Store is an
> > easy
> > >
> > > > place to get lost, and it does not include a list of available
> > > > 802 documents.
> > > >
> > > > *Are sales of drafts included in the Get IEEE 802 
> budget? I think
> > IEEE
> > >
> > > > could do a better job of promoting them for sale.
> > > > It's nice that the web page has two links to the draft 
> sale page.
> > > > Unfortunately, both of those links are dead, because they
> > point to
> > > > ILI. ILI has not been offering 802 drafts since November 1.
> > > >
> > > > *As usual, we discussed the statistical profiles of the
> > downloaders
> > > > when we met last week. However, I suspect that this data
> > may be out
> > of
> > >
> > > > date. I say this because, when I went to download
> > standards today, I
> > > > did not receive the survey form. [Neither did I receive a
> > "Terms and
> > > > Conditions" page to accept.] I found the same results on two
> > different
> > >
> > > > browsers.
> > > >
> > > > Before we next meet to talk about the program budget, can
> > you see if
> > > > IEEE can review the web site?
> > > >
> > > > Roger
> > > >
> > > > ----------
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> > reflector.
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> > >
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> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > Rick Alfvin
> > Vice Chair IEEE 802.15
> > +1 585.781.0952
> > 
> > ----------
> > This email is sent from the 802 Executive Committee email reflector.
> > This list is maintained by Listserv.
> > 
> > ----------
> > This email is sent from the 802 Executive Committee email 
> reflector.  
> > This list is maintained by Listserv.
> > 
> 
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