RE: [802SEC] Amended P&P text for Roll Call Vote Rules Change
Bob, Sorry, but I totally disagree. The chair still has full opportunity to interpret what is becoming abusive and when to issue the warnings, but he needs some firm basis on which to say the threshold has been exceeded for the most pathological cases (the meeting of 400) or he will be the target of a hail of protests from the tacticians. If the rules are clear about the threshold limit most would probably avoid the tactic in the first place, and you avoid the circumstance entirely.
In my experience the nastiest political disputes occur when there is too little guidance on how to proceed.
Thanx, Buzz
Dr. Everett O. (Buzz) Rigsbee
Boeing - SSG
PO Box 3707, M/S: 7M-FM
Seattle, WA 98124-2207
(425) 865-2443 Fx: (425) 865-6721
cell: (425) 417-1022
everett.o.rigsbee@boeing.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert D. Love [mailto:rdlove@nc.rr.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 12:48 PM
To: Rigsbee, Everett O; Mike Takefman
Cc: stds-802-sec@ieee.org
Subject: Re: [802SEC] Amended P&P text for Roll Call Vote Rules Change
Buzz, this is an area where we may be best off without trying to muddy-up
the rules with over-specificity. What is "abusive" in a meeting of 400
people, may be no problem at all in a meeting with 20 people. By putting no
numbers in there we allow humans to look at the actions after the fact and
make a reasoned decision as to whether the chair has been acting properly.
I don't think we need to do more than that.
Best regards,
Robert D. Love
President, LAN Connect Consultants
7105 Leveret Circle Raleigh, NC 27615
Phone: 919 848-6773 Mobile: 919 810-7816
email: rdlove@ieee.org Fax: 208 978-1187
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rigsbee, Everett O" <everett.o.rigsbee@boeing.com>
To: "Mike Takefman" <tak@cisco.com>
Cc: <stds-802-sec@ieee.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 3:35 PM
Subject: RE: [802SEC] Amended P&P text for Roll Call Vote Rules Change
>
>
> Mike, I'm just thinking that to the extent you can put some threshold
guides in there you can perhaps deflect some of the more onerous appeals
processes, which can indeed be very unpleasant to have to deal with. For
example, if you were to quantify "abuse" as requests for more than 4
roll-call votes during any single meeting, that gives the chair a threshold
at which he can warn folks of the consequences of further "abuse" and
hopefully head off the tactic and the possible disputes that might result
from having to apply the rule.
>
> A little specificity can go a long way to preventing disputes in the first
place. :-)
>
> Thanx, Buzz
> Dr. Everett O. (Buzz) Rigsbee
> Boeing - SSG
> PO Box 3707, M/S: 7M-FM
> Seattle, WA 98124-2207
> (425) 865-2443 Fx: (425) 865-6721
> cell: (425) 417-1022
> everett.o.rigsbee@boeing.com
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Takefman [mailto:tak@cisco.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 8:18 PM
> To: Rigsbee, Everett O
> Cc: stds-802-sec@ieee.org
> Subject: Re: [802SEC] Amended P&P text for Roll Call Vote Rules Change
>
>
> Buzz,
>
> I agree with you.
>
> In the end, people make their own decisions, and the remainder
> of us get to grouse after the fact.
>
> The chair, WG, EC and so on up the chain will be forced to
> distinguish if complaints and ultimately appeals get launched
> based on things chairs do (or don't do). This has happened
> in the past, and will happen in the future. The goal in
> my mind is to try to insure the process is not just open and
> fair, but seen to be open and fair.
>
> mike
>
> Rigsbee, Everett O wrote:
> >
> > Mike, Well, as they always say, "One man's art is another man's
pornography. How do you distinguish the two ?"
> >
> > Thanx, Buzz
> > Dr. Everett O. (Buzz) Rigsbee
> > Boeing - SSG
> > PO Box 3707, M/S: 7M-FM
> > Seattle, WA 98124-2207
> > (425) 865-2443 Fx: (425) 865-6721
> > cell: (425) 417-1022
> > everett.o.rigsbee@boeing.com
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mike Takefman [mailto:tak@cisco.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 11:41 AM
> > To: Rigsbee, Everett O
> > Cc: stds-802-sec@ieee.org
> > Subject: Re: [802SEC] Amended P&P text for Roll Call Vote Rules Change
> >
> >
> >
> > Buzz,
> >
> > I copied that text right out of Roberts where it was discussing
> > divisions of the assembly. So that particular language has
> > withstood a long time.
> >
> > Right now our P&P gives huge power to the chair without all
> > that much guidance. The proposed text is clearly in line
> > with that philosophy.
> >
> > The requirement to minute the chair's reasons gives sufficient
> > details in the event that someone wants to protest that the
> > chair is abusing their position.
> >
> > I think in the end, it is like pornography, or at least art.
> >
> > I don't know art, but I know what I hate!
> >
> > cheers,
> >
> > mike
> >
> > Rigsbee, Everett O wrote:
> >
> >>Mike, I think you're still going to have problems if you can't provide
more specificity for what constitutes abuse.
> >>
> >>The WG Chair needs some guidelines for how/where to draw the line. It
can't just be like pornography.
> >>
> >>Thanx, Buzz
> >>Dr. Everett O. (Buzz) Rigsbee
> >>Boeing - SSG
> >>PO Box 3707, M/S: 7M-FM
> >>Seattle, WA 98124-2207
> >>(425) 865-2443 Fx: (425) 865-6721
> >>cell: (425) 417-1022
> >>everett.o.rigsbee@boeing.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: Mike Takefman [mailto:tak@cisco.com]
> >>Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 6:55 AM
> >>To: stds-802-sec@ieee.org
> >>Subject: [802SEC] Amended P&P text for Roll Call Vote Rules Change
> >>
> >>
> >>Dear EC Members and interested parties,
> >>
> >>In January a small Comment Resolution
> >>group sat down and resolved the comments on the
> >>Rules Change Ballot (which failed originally).
> >>
> >>These proposed changes will be discussed at the
> >>sunday night rules change meeting in Orlando.
> >>
> >>I believe that this text provides a good compromise
> >>on both allowing roll call votes and allowing the
> >>chair to make progress in meetings by not being
> >>swamped by roll call votes.
> >>
> >>I would like to have an straw poll on this new
> >>text from EC members between now and the rules
> >>change meeting. Please email me with your support or
> >>concerns over this change.
> >>
> >>cheers,
> >>
> >>mike
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Michael Takefman tak@cisco.com
> Distinguished Engineer, Cisco Systems
> Chair IEEE 802.17 Stds WG
> 3000 Innovation Dr, Ottawa, Canada, K2K 3E8
> voice: 613-254-3399 cell:613-220-6991
>
>
>