RE: [802SEC] +++EC Motion+++ P802.3ah conditional approval
Bob-
OK, we agree to disagree. That is why these things are voted on by more
than one person.
You are right. There is no requirement for a summary. We have often done
a summary of remaining issues as a courtesy to the Exec. I believe
it is appropriate but it is true it is not a requirement.
It is my recollection that the issue was deferred because I requested
that the unresolved comments be presented (as per procedure 10) and the
chair felt that reviewing that many would take too much time to be done
in session.
As to "Now you are arguing that it is too many to review in a 10 day
ballot."
My opinion is that Procedure 10 asks for a much more concise presentation
than something that needs up to 10 days to review.
But that is just what I think.
Best regards,
Geoff
At 04:48 PM 11/21/2003 -0800, Grow, Bob wrote:
Geoff:
I must respectfully disagree with most of your arguments, finding them
invalid.
- There is no requirement to provide a summary of the comments.
In fact, the requirement is to supply the comments and responses.
That has been done with a URL.
- Consideration of the motion was deferred because you complained the
number of comments was too many to review in the EC meeting. Now
you are arguing that it is too many to review in a 10 day ballot.
The number of unresolved comments does not relieve our responsibilities
for administering the process, and we would have to do so in the case of
an unconditional request for forwarding to Sponsor Ballot. The only
difference between an unconditional approval and the requested
conditional approval is that 19 comments included in the current
recirculation might possibly be reduced in number. The comments
already recirculated but still unresolved would not decrease with were
this an unconditional approval for Sponsor Ballot.
- I will not attempt to dispute your subjective judgment that the 65
unresolved comments contra-indicate that &ballot resolution efforts
have been substantially completed& , other than to reiterate that of
these comments, only 19 unresolved comments are from the D2.1 ballot and
7 of the 19 are pile-on comments to D2.0 comments. Each member of
the EC must make their own subjective judgment if this criteria has been
met.
- The number of comments you cite as evidence of lack of consensus is
not supported by the approval ratio. The approval ratio at 84%
remains well above the required 75%.
- The schedule for resolution of comments was presented to the SEC when
the motion was originally presented at the closing EC meeting. My
apologies for the lack of redundancy in presenting that information again
with the motion. If the recirculation ballot produces no comments,
there will be no meeting. If there are comments, a BRC will meet
via teleconference on 4 December to resolve the comments. The BRC
meeting with short notice was approved by 802.3 (56, 0, 21).
There are things in the P802.3ah draft that I personally don t
like. I have concerns about what I believe are technical problems
in the draft. I have unresolved comments from D2.0 (supported by
some D2.1 pile-on comments). No D2.0 voter s comments were
persuasive enough make the recirculation ballot fail. Independent
of my personal concerns expressed through the Working Group ballot, I
recognize that at the EC I am not to judge the technical content of the
draft, but I am to judge if the procedural requirements have been met and
defer to the technical judgment of the ballot group.
I as Chair and each member of the EC have obligations to both the
minority and the majority of the ballot group. Though a minority
remain unsatisfied, their comments were and are being recirculated to the
ballot group. I believe our obligation to them has been
fulfilled. We now have an obligation to act per the expressed will
of the majority.
--Bob Grow
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-stds-802-sec@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-stds-802-sec@majordomo.ieee.org]
On Behalf Of Geoff Thompson
Sent: Friday, November 21, 2003 12:08 PM
To: Paul Nikolich
Cc: IEEE802
Subject: Re: [802SEC] +++EC Motion+++ P802.3ah conditional
approval
Colleagues-
Please read Procedure 10 carefully BEFORE you vote.
Procedure 10 was specifically put in place to bring consistency to the
conditional approval process.
My vote is DISAPPROVE
My primary rationale:
The requirements of Procedure 10 have NOT been met.
Specifically (extracted verbatim from procedure 10):
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Motions requesting conditional approval to forward where the prior ballot
has closed shall be accompanied by:
" Date the ballot closed [GOT: 2.1 closed 3-Nov per slide 2]
" Vote tally including Approve, Disapprove and Abstain votes
[GOT:
Buried in table slide 2, 92/18/6
" Comments that support the remaining disapprove votes and Working
Group responses.
[GOT:
Unsatisfied requirement, further comments below.]
" Schedule for confirmation ballot and resolution
[GOT:
Unsatisfied requirement, further comments below.]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
RE: Remaining Disapproves:
802.3 has not provided a concise summary of the "remaining
disapprove votes and Working Group responses" to you in this motion
package per the "shall be accompanied by" requirement. Rather
they have merely provided a pointer to:
"Complete comment databases from these two ballots are available at:
http://www.ieee802.org/3/efm/public/comments/."
This does not meet the requirement
This has the effect of masking the extent to which consensus has or has
not been met.
The fact that there are (slide 3) "65 unresolved Technical Required
(negative) comments" really means that there are too many comments
to be reviewed during an EC motion. ["Seeking conditional approval
is only appropriate when ballot resolution efforts have been
substantially completed..."] This issue has been ducked by not
meeting the requirement and exposing the dissenting votes. It is my
belief that this project, at this point in the process, is an
inappropriate stretch of the intention of Procedure 10.
RE: Schedule for confirmation ballot:
I don't understand why the required specifics have not been provided
instead of the generalities provided below. The schedule for recirc is
known as the ballot has already been opened. There seems to me no meeting
scheduled for resolution of comments. I assert that this is a requirement
of this procedure.
Sincerely,
Geoff
At 11:56 AM 11/21/2003 -0500, Paul Nikolich wrote:
Dear SEC members,
This is a 10 day SEC email ballot to make a determination by EC motion to
conditionally approve P802.3ah to begin Sponsor Ballot.
Motion
The LMSC executive committee grants conditional approval per Procedure
10, for P802.3ah sponsor ballot pending successful completion of the
working group ballot process.
Moved by Bob Grow
Seconded by Tony Jeffree
The email ballot opens on Friday Nov 21 NOON EST and Monday Dec 1 NOON
EST.
Please direct your responses to the EC reflector with a CC directly to
me
(p.nikolich@ieee.org).
Regards,
- Paul Nikolich
Chairman, IEEE 802 LMSC
Colleagues:
During the closing EC meeting, consideration of
conditional approval for P802.3ah progressing to sponsor ballot was
deferred for email consideration.
- The working group vote for conditional approval passed Y: 57, N: 2,
A: 17 as shown in the attachment.
- This EC vote is being conducted in parallel with the second working
group recirculation ballot. This timing will allow a sponsor ballot
to be conducted prior to the Vancouver interim meeting if the
recirculation ballot results satisfy Procedure 10 of the LMSC
P&P. There is insufficient time for conduct of a working group
ballot, EC ballot and sponsor ballot in serial prior to the Vancouver
meeting.
- If the requirements of Procedure 10 are met, the sponsor ballot will
open very quickly after close of the working group recirculation.
- The initial P802.3ah/D2.0 working group ballot closed 3 Sep 2003 and
the first WG recirculation ballot on P802.3ah/D2.1 closed 3 Nov
2003. Complete comment databases from these two ballots are
available at:
http://www.ieee802.org/3/efm/public/comments/.
- The ballot results are in the attached report.
- Unresolved (unsatisfied) negative comments from D2.0 were included in the D2.1 recirculation.
- Unresolved (unsatisfied) negative comments from both D2.1 and D2.0 are included in the D2.2 recirculation.
- If you want access to the drafts, please contact Howard or me for the username and password.
Motion
The LMSC executive committee grants conditional approval per Procedure 10, for P802.3ah sponsor ballot pending successful completion of the working group ballot process.