G’day Geoff
Ahh, I now understand your point. We can do that in the future
Andrew
From: thompson@ieee.org <thompson@ieee.org>
Sent: Wednesday, 1 June 2022 1:28 PM
To: Roger Marks <r.b.marks@ieee.org>; Andrew Myles (amyles) <amyles@cisco.com>
Cc: stds-802-sec@listserv.ieee.org; Jodi Haasz <j.haasz@ieee.org>
Subject: Re: [802SEC] PSDO status report for SC6
You misunderstood my intent.
I only cited a NWI as their equivalent term for our term "PAR."
For us to advise them of our PAR approvals would:
1) Let them know the subject matter for sets of documents coming in the future.
2) Notify them of subject matter under development in case there was interest from their members in participation.
I think such notice would be a good thing.
On Tuesday, May 31, 2022, 02:42:30 PM PDT, Andrew Myles (amyles) <amyles@cisco.com> wrote:
G’day Geoff
The idea of informing SC6 about SGs (or equivalent) was to give them an idea of what was likely to be pushed through the PSDO process at some future
time. Our work is unlikely to aligned with any NWI’s (I hope not)
It was also seen as a way of advertising IEEE 802 work to a larger audience, with the idea some ISO folk may be encouraged to participate directly in
IEEE 802, although I am not sure that has ever happened
Andrew
If my memory is correct, there is an actual "new work item" step in the ISO/IEC process that shows up as an NWI in their paperwork. Thus, I believe
that we should inform them of our nearest equivalent to that step in their process in satisfaction of our PSDO obligation. That would be (I think, I didn't do the actual process comparison for this memo) to an approved PAR.
Further, a "Study Group" is not a required step in our process and is not used by all Working Groups.
Andrew,
I still don’t understand Slide 18. One point of confusion: if 802 agreed to inform SC 6 about "new work items,” I would expect that we would inform them of PARs, but it appears that we have been informing them only of Study Groups. I agree that this could be
reconsidered in the JTC1 SC.
I would support the motion if Slide 18 did not lead to the implication that 802 has failed to fulfill an agreement. I don’t think we’d lose anything by deleting Slide 18. Alternatively, we could, for example, delete the third bullet item (referring to the
July notification).
On May 29, 2022, 8:19 PM -0600, Andrew Myles (amyles) <amyles@cisco.com>,
wrote:
G’day Roger
RM> I’d like to better understand Slide 18 before I vote. That slide says that "IEEE 802 has agreed to notify SC 6 when IEEE
802 starts new projects.” Is that a firm agreement? When was it made?
Way back in Sep 2012, in the middle of a heated and long debate about the use of the PSDO process to ratify IEEE 802 standards
as ISO/IEC/IEEE standards, SC6 passed a motion (at their Graz, Austria meeting) that:
SC 6 invites the IEEE 802 WG’s to exchange information about new work items that are within the scope of SC 6 and the respective IEEE 802 WG for information and potential coordination
This motion was part of the solution to all the previous arguments, and the IEEE 802 reps at the meeting informally responded
to this request (and some others) by suggesting:
-
802.11 will continue to provide drafts for comment prior to publication.
-
Posted on ISO website maintained by 802.11
-
802.11 will continue to provide “pipeline” status information on all amendment/revision/maintenance activities. In meeting report.
-
802.11 could provide SC6 with notification of proposed new work items (Study Groups, Project Authorization Requests in IEEE, PAR approvals) before formal approval of the project by the IEEE Standards
Board. (Posted on ISO website maintained by 802.11)
-
Additionally 802 Could provide similar “pipeline” status information on amendment/revision/maintenance activities.
-
802 could provide SC6 with notification of proposed new work items (Study Groups, Project Authorization Requests in IEEE)
There is no formal agreement because that would have been very complicated on both the ISO side and the IEEE SA side. See
11-12-1327r2 for all the details of the discussion at the time. I note that the informal agreements made at the time (expanded over time to cover all of IEEE 802, not just IEEE 802.11) became the basis of all the successful PSDO activities for the last
10 years. Since then, IEEE 802 have roughly undertaken the above activities, keeping our end of the informal agreement/bargain, including notifications of SG formations. We have typically notified SG formations via a note from the IEEE 802 Recording Secretary
after each IEEE 802 plenary, rather than via the status report to SC6. IEEE 802 Recording Secretary did not send anything after the Nov 2021 plenary because no SGs were approved. I have an action to check with John D’Ambrosia if he has sent a notification
after the March 2022 meeting. John?
For some reason the request to approve this particular IEEE 802 status report to SC6 has generated lots of questions, comments
and suggestions from numerous people, many more than over the last 5+ years. Questions, comments and suggestions to make things better in the future are always welcome, and I will make sure we discuss them at the IEEE 802 JTC1 SC meeting in July 2022 for
future implementation. However, in the meantime, can we please just approve the report in
ec-22-0103-01, on the basis that it is consistent with the practice over the last 5+ years, so that we can hit the SC6 submission deadline (we have less than 2 weeks now).
All, so my request is:
-
If you have not voted, please do so ASAP (hopefully with an “approve”)
-
If you want change the way we do things
in the future please come to the IEEE 802 JTC1 SC meeting in July 2022
Andrew
PS So far …
|
Voter Role
|
Name
|
NV
|
APP
|
DIS
|
ABS
|
DNV
|
|
CH
|
Paul Nikolich
|
|
|
|
|
DNV
|
|
VC
|
James PK Gilb
|
|
|
|
|
DNV
|
|
VC
|
Roger Marks
|
|
|
|
|
DNV
|
|
TR
|
George Zimmerman
|
|
|
|
|
DNV
|
|
RS
|
John D'Ambrosia
|
|
|
|
|
DNV
|
|
ES
|
Jon W Rosdahl
|
|
APP
|
|
|
|
|
01
|
Glenn Parsons
|
|
|
|
|
DNV
|
|
03
|
David Law
|
|
APP
|
|
|
|
|
11
|
Dorothy Stanley
|
|
|
|
|
DNV
|
|
15
|
Clint Powell
|
|
APP
|
|
|
|
|
18
|
Edward Au
|
|
APP
|
|
|
|
|
19
|
Steve Shellhammer
|
|
|
|
|
DNV
|
|
24
|
Tim Godfrey
|
|
APP
|
|
|
|
|
ME
|
Geoffrey Thompson
|
NV
|
|
|
|
|
|
ME
|
Clint Chaplin
|
NV
|
|
|
|
|
|
Totals
|
15
|
2
|
5
|
0
|
0
|
8
|
Andrew,
I’d like to better understand Slide 18 before I vote. That slide says that "IEEE 802 has agreed to notify SC 6 when IEEE 802 starts new projects.” Is that a firm agreement? When was it made? The text below indicates only that 802 informed SC6 of two activities
following the July 2021 Plenary.
I’m concerned that the message of the slide is that 802 agreed to notify SC 6 and has failed to do so recently. I think it would be worthwhile to add some more information; e.g.:
-In the future, IEEE will provide updates (annually? after each plenary?).
-Herein is a list of active projects started since the July 2021 report....
On May 26, 2022, 8:07 PM -0600, Andrew Myles (amyles) <00000b706269bb8b-dmarc-request@listserv.ieee.org>,
wrote:
G’day all
To Jon’s point, please vote early so that we can get this done well before 7 June.
I have made some editorial changes to the report based on IEEE SA staff advice – the current version is uploaded as
ec-22-0103-01.
So far …
|
Voter Role
|
Name
|
NV
|
APP
|
DIS
|
ABS
|
DNV
|
|
CH
|
Paul Nikolich
|
|
|
|
|
DNV
|
|
VC
|
James PK Gilb
|
|
|
|
|
DNV
|
|
VC
|
Roger Marks
|
|
|
|
|
DNV
|
|
TR
|
George Zimmerman
|
|
|
|
|
DNV
|
|
RS
|
John D'Ambrosia
|
|
|
|
|
DNV
|
|
ES
|
Jon W Rosdahl
|
|
APP
|
|
|
|
|
01
|
Glenn Parsons
|
|
|
|
|
DNV
|
|
03
|
David Law
|
|
|
|
|
DNV
|
|
11
|
Dorothy Stanley
|
|
|
|
|
DNV
|
|
15
|
Clint Powell
|
|
APP
|
|
|
|
|
16
|
Roger Marks
|
NV
|
|
|
|
|
|
18
|
Edward Au
|
|
APP
|
|
|
|
|
19
|
Steve Shellhammer
|
|
|
|
|
DNV
|
|
21
|
Subir Das
|
NV
|
|
|
|
|
|
22
|
Apurva Mody
|
NV
|
|
|
|
|
|
24
|
Tim Godfrey
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
ME
|
Geoffrey Thompson
|
NV
|
|
|
|
|
|
ME
|
Clint Chaplin
|
NV
|
|
|
|
|
|
Totals
|
18
|
5
|
3
|
0
|
0
|
9
|
Andrew
I do note that as this ballot closes on June 7, it may have just as well as been on the Telcon agenda rather than email ballot.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jon Rosdahl Engineer, Senior Staff
IEEE 802 Executive Secretary Qualcomm Technologies, Inc.
office: 801-492-4023 10871 North 5750 West
cell: 801-376-6435 Highland, UT 84003
A Job is only necessary to eat!
A Family is necessary to be happy!!
Dear EC members,
With this email, I would like to announce the start of an LMSC(EC) ballot to authorize liaising a PSDO status report
to ISO/IEC JTC1/6. Paul has delegated to me to conduct the electronic ballot on the motion below.
Motion:
Authorize the Chair & Vice Chair of IEEE 802 JTC1 SC to send a status report (ec-22-0103-00) on behalf of IEEE 802 to ISO/IEC
JTC1/SC6 for consideration at their meeting on 27 June – 1 July 2022. The Chair & Vice Chair of IEEE 802 JTC1 SC have editorial license.
Mover: Dorothy Stanley
Seconder: Jon Rosdahl
Start of ballot: 26 May 2022
Close of ballot: 07 June 2022 (with early close if possible)
Andrew Myles
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