Re: [802SEC] Updates to proposed WG P&P

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Thank you Jodi! As an SA member its hard to see how this works, but the manual is clear. This is the process I recall from 2019. Do you know what the fee is? (private email is OK). I understand from the text it is certainly more than adding an SA membership to an IEEE membership, but I’m wondering if it is more than the sum of both memberships.

From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List ***** <STDS-802-SEC@listserv.ieee.org> On Behalf Of Jodi Haasz
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2021 11:02 AM
To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [802SEC] Updates to proposed WG P&P

Hi Geoff,

Please see sublcause 6.5 of the myProject User Guide.

Best regards,

Jodi

Jodi Haasz

Senior Manager,

Operational Program Management

Office: +1 732-562-6367

Mobile: +1 732-439-9144 | standards.ieee.org

On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 1:54 PM Geoff Thompson <thompson@ieee.org> wrote:

Folks-

I am not at all surprised that the IEEE (spider) web site doesn't make it easy and perhaps not even possible to join a balloting group by paying a fee. The IEEE has a long history of non-intuitive and non-obvious user interfaces which seem to be accompanied by inadequate release testing.

I consider the current route into joining a balloting group to be obscure enough that I would be inclined to give up if I weren't relying on the fact that I made it through the maze before (there was quite a bit of CHATting between colleagues at the time) and I remembered a key hint or two that was not obvious.

I would suggest that an EC member who is involved in governance ask two things of an appropriate person from staff.

1. Is the non-member balloting fee still an option?

2. Please demonstrate precisely the web path (through to completion) by which one joins a balloting group on a non-member basis.

When we (the EC at the 1st EC retreat) conclusively proved to Susan Tatiner that one could not actually purchase a copy of 802.16 it did a world of good. As I recall, she did not believe us until we fronted 802 funds (via our credit card) to go all the way through the actual proof.

BTW, the Institute dropped many of the entrance requirements years ago. It may well be that any individual can join these days.

Geoff

On Thursday, November 18, 2021, 10:20:14 AM PST, George Zimmerman <george@cmephyconsulting.com> wrote:

Right. I was trying to check it. my recollection was that at one point the fee for a single ballot was less than being a member.
But your point about fulfilling openness is taken. Reading the below, are you opposing to the deletion, or supporting it - since the text to be deleted says ' Membership in the IEEE SA will also allow participants to join the Standards Association ballot group' - I could see you thinking that the EXISTING text (to be deleted) suggests that the only way to join the SA ballot group is to be a memer of the SA

-----Original Message-----
From: ROBERT GROW <bobgrow@cox.net>
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2021 10:15 AM
To: George Zimmerman <george@cmephyconsulting.com>
Cc: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [802SEC] Updates to proposed WG P&P

George,

As long a I can remember, the per ballot fee has been the same as IEEE membership + IEEE SA membership. If someone can’t pay a per ballot fee then there is a bigger problem. I expect on some projects, someone that would be an interested party may not be qualified to join IEEE. The per ballot fee option is there to fulfill the principle of openness. (BTW, ieee.org is down right now and so I can’t check or copy the text on joining.)

—Bob

> On Nov 18, 2021, at 9:55 AM, George Zimmerman <george@cmephyconsulting.com> wrote:
>
> Bob - I know the rules say you can pay a per-ballot fee; however, I haven't checked this year, but when we did the 802.3cg SA ballot in 2019, I checked into the per-ballot fee option. It was essentially closed off. There was no easy way to pay. AND, when we inquired, it was the same (or more, I forget) than joining SA if you were an IEEE member already. Maybe they've fixed that with the new myballot? Has anyone checked?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List ***** <STDS-802-SEC@listserv.ieee.org> On Behalf Of ROBERT GROW
> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2021 9:41 AM
> To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: Re: [802SEC] Updates to proposed WG P&P
>
> James,
>
> I find this misleading. Unless I’ve missed a process change, SA Ballots can also be participated in via payment of a per-ballot fee. People may infer from the second sentence that IEEE SA membership is the only way to join the ballot group.
>
> —Bob
>
>> On Nov 17, 2021, at 5:47 PM, James P. K. Gilb <000008e8b69871c2-dmarc-request@listserv.ieee.org> wrote:
>>
>> All
>>
>> I forgot a couple of suggested changes for 4.2 Voting Membership
>>
>> The reviewers suggested deleting:
>> "Although not a requirement for membership in the Working Group, participants are encouraged to join the IEEE, IEEE SA and the IEEE Computer Society. Membership in the IEEE SA will also allow participants to join the Standards Association ballot group."
>>
>> as it is not a requirement and so really doesn't belong in the P&P (we could put it in an OM).
>>
>> Also, editorial correction:
>> "A recent Interim Session is any of the Interim Sessions after the first of the four most recent Plenary Sessions."
>> (i.e., make the second two instances of Session plural)
>>
>> An updated proposed P&P with these changes has been uploaded to:
>> https://mentor.ieee.org/802-ec/dcn/21/ec-21-0280-01-00EC-proposed-ieee-802-lmsc-wg-p-p.doc
>>
>> James Gilb
>>
>> ----------
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>
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