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RogerYou can count me as a vote against all of the suggested changes as the do not address the multitude of issues for holding a plenary electronically in our rules.
The biggest problem is that it restricts the plenary to 5 days when we will certainly need more than that to finish our business.
We can do much better and now is not the time to write these changes into the OM.
The best answer is a temporary change for July to see how it works. Once we know what we might want, we can change the rules.
The edits you propose clash with other sections in the P&P, the OM and the WG P&P, for example, in your edits to subclause 4.1.3, you seem to limit the LMSC to electronic meetings only during exceptional Plenary Sessions (a term which is undefined).
You add a requirement 5.1 for plenary venues to be announced 3 months in advance, the current requirement is only 30 days (we have had last minute venue changes in the past, typically in the same city, but Dallas Airport comes to mind).
James Gilb On 4/28/20 3:01 PM, Roger Marks wrote:
James, Thanks for your stimulating comments. I've thought about them and still prefer the proposed OpsMan update. After reviewing the rules, I think that generalizing the definition of Plenary Session gets us close to complete solution. It doesn't require reworking all the procedures in detail; we would just use the existing procedures. If there are still remaining issues that don't meet our needs, then I think that your suggestion of suspension (prior to the next Plenary Session) could be a good complement to make further adjustments. I believe that we could find a time zone that would work, though it won't be ideal for everyone. It's not clear to me that we would need to collect a registration fee but, if it's decided that we need one, then I'm confident we could. I'm also confident that WGs could hold officer elections, noting that the current WG P&P doesn't specify how they are conducted. Also note that the current WG P&P provides for voting during WG teleconferences. None of this would require procedure suspension. Maybe other wrinkles would show up, but I think we can iron them out. Suspension alone is not a complete solution to the issues in front of us, of course. Suspension does not get around requirements in the LMSC P&P. For example, the terms of officers continue until we hold a Plenary Session. But, since the P&P specifies that a plenary session is "as defined in Plenary Sessions subclause" of the OpsMan, we have the power to enable the officer update process by updating the definition of the Plenary Session in the P&P. Finally, if we find that we could improve the electronic Plenary Session by differentiating it from an in-person Plenary Session, we can later change the Ops Manual again. So I still support the proposed changes. Cheers, Roger On Apr 28, 2020, 12:53 PM -0600, James P. K. Gilb <Gilb_IEEE@yahoo.com>, wrote:Roger Yes, but then you are also fixed to a week duration. And the times in the OM are not necessarily good world wide as the start times are offset by 5 hours. A 5 hour in-person meeting to close the week may make sense when we have been in the same location and room but perhaps 2 2-hour sessions would be better for an electronic plenary. How will we set the fee for the meeting? Are there any approved expenses for the treasurer? How will WG's hold officer elections? My humble suggestion is to use the suspension process until we find what works, and then codify that. Or not. It could go in the Chair's guidelines as a suggested way to hold an electronic plenary when/if it is necessary. James Gilb On 4/28/20 11:46 AM, Roger Marks wrote:James, I recognize that some Plenary Session activities have specified clock-time mandates. That's why I proposed that an electronic Plenary be held "per an announced time zone"; I think this would establish all the deadlines. Cheers, Roger On Apr 28, 2020, 12:27 PM -0600, James P. K. Gilb <000008e8b69871c2-dmarc-request@listserv.ieee.org>, wrote:Roger The edits would need to go deeper than that. For example, the opening and closing sessions are defined times and durations. A plenary session is also defined to be a week, but with WG ballots to approve items for the closing LMSC meeting, it may take longer than that. I would suggest instead that we suspend plenary rules for July in the OM (based on the changes already suggested and reviewed, pending approval of the new OM) and have the following schedule: July 7: electronic meeting by LMSC to open the plenary. July 7-17: WG electronic meetings and WG subgroup meetings July 18-28: Time for any WG electronic ballots to approve actions July 28 (and possibly 29): electronic meeting by LMSC to review WG motions requiring EC approval and to close the plenary. At this point, trying to chase down each rule associated with the plenary and "fix" the OM (and potentially the WG P&P) would be foolhardy, IMHO. James Gilb On 4/27/20 2:42 PM, ROBERT GROW wrote:Roger: One grammatical suggestion from the peanut gallery. In 1) new text last line, delete the last “shall”. —BobOn Apr 27, 2020, at 1:42 PM, Roger Marks <r.b.marks@IEEE.ORG> wrote: Thanks, Glenn. I started a comment tracking sheet <https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LOguhfz71ge0TflrdaAcGGSMc-tGqHb9dQThtXeU2VM/edit?usp=sharing>. You should be able to see your comment and a response. I'm proposing a different resolution to the issue you identified: replacing "regular plenary sessions" (which was not defined) with "in-person plenary sessions" (which perhaps is clear enough). See if that is OK for you. It should be possible for the public to view the sheet and add comments. If someone wants to edit the sheet directly, I can share write access. Cheers, Roger On Apr 27, 2020, 1:56 PM -0600, Glenn Parsons <glenn.parsons@ericsson.com>, wrote:Roger, I support this simple modification that will negate having to define alternative electronic methods for various plenary only activities. For clarity, you could consider adding a definition of “regular” in 5.1, for example before “in exceptional cases…”: Regular LMSC plenary sessions shall be face-to-face. Cheers, Glenn. From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List ***** <STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> On Behalf Of Roger Marks Sent: Monday, April 27, 2020 1:59 PM To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [802SEC] proposed revision to IEEE 802 LMSC Operations Manual to support emergency electronic Plenary Sessions I am hereby submitting a proposed revision to the IEEE 802 LMSC Operations Manual (OM). This notice is in accordance with OM Clause 19, which says "Revisions to the IEEE 802 LMSC OM shall be submitted by a Sponsor member to the Sponsor no less than 30 day in advance of a Sponsor Vote to approve them. The Sponsor member proposing the revision may modify the proposed revision during the 30 days prior to a Sponsor Vote (in response to comments)." I'm open to any comments and modifications, but I want to get the clock ticking ASAP. Here is the proposed revision: (1) In subclause 5.1 ("Plenary sessions"), change the first paragraph: Plenary sessions are the primary LMSC sessions. All active IEEE 802 LMSC WGs hold their plenary sessions during IEEE 802 LMSC plenary sessions.[v22] to: Plenary Sessions are the primary LMSC sessions. An LMSC Plenary Session is a multiday set of meetings identified as an LMSC Plenary Session by decision of the Standards Committee. The LMSC Plenary Session venue shall be announced at least three months in advance. In exceptional cases, the Standards Committee may cancel an announced venue and may decide that the Plenary Session will be a held by electronic means on the preannounced dates per an announced time zone. All active IEEE 802 Working Groups shall hold meetings during each IEEE 802 Plenary session; only during exceptional electronic Plenary Sessions shall such meetings shall be held exclusively electronically. (2) In clause 5 ("IEEE 802 LMSC sessions"), delete the third paragraph: All active IEEE 802 WGs shall meet face-to-face during each IEEE 802 Plenary session. All WG meetings shall only be face-to-face, electronic meetings are not allowed. Additionally, IEEE 802 TAGs are allowed to have electronic meetings to make decisions between meetings, but such meetings do not count for participation credit. [v22] (3) In subclause 4.1.3, change as follows: The Sponsor IEEE 802 LMSC meets in-person during regular plenary sessions and electronically during exceptional Plenary Sessions. Rationale: The intention of the proposal is to generalize the concept of Plenary Session to include all-electronic sessions, in case exceptional circumstances require cancellation of a venue. The changes would allow the current procedures that are tied to a Plenary Session [except those addressed in changes (2) and (3)] to proceed without update. This includes all procedures in the LMSC Policies and Procedures, which says "A plenary session is as defined in Plenary Sessions subclause of the IEEE 802 LAN/MAN Standards Committee Operations Manual," and in the WG Policies and Procedures, which says "A plenary session is as defined in the “Plenary sessions” subclause of the IEEE 802 LMSC Operations Manual." The change also removes the hard prohibition on electronic WG meetings. Cheers, Roger To unsubscribe from the STDS-802-SEC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=STDS-802-SEC&A=1 <https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=STDS-802-SEC&A=1>To unsubscribe from the STDS-802-SEC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=STDS-802-SEC&A=1---------- This email is sent from the 802 Executive Committee email reflector. This list is maintained by Listserv.---------- This email is sent from the 802 Executive Committee email reflector. This list is maintained by Listserv.
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