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Howdy Andrew, On 4/12/17, 6:41 PM, "Andrew Myles (amyles)" <amyles@cisco.com> wrote: G’day Dan I think we will agree that the goal of IEEE-SA is forming consensus. It is worthwhile at this point quoting the definition of consensus (ISO defn) General agreement, characterized by the absence of sustained opposition to substantial issues by any important part of the concerned interests and by a process that
involves seeking to take into account the views of all parties concerned and to reconcile any conflicting arguments My (our!) personal experience with ISO makes it somewhat less of an authority to appeal to. I'd rather point to RFC 7282 which I invite you to read, but the actual definition of consensus is not
germane to this. The nice thing about this definition is that it means the achievement of consensus by IEEE 802 is completely independent of any discussions that occur outside IEEE 802.
The key for consensus from IEEE 802’s perspective is that as long as individuals within the IEEE 802 have an opportunity to express
sustained opposition to substantial issues and there is a process that involves seeking to take into account the views of all parties concerned and to reconcile any conflicting arguments, there is no need to worry about any decision making processes
outside the IEEE 802. The bottom line is that IEEE 802 doesn’t need to worry about agreements like NDAs between companies, it just needs to make sure the processes within the IEEE 802 promote consensus as defined above.
The issue about NDAs is that there is something secretive going on there and there is no reason consensus building needs secrecy. So the fact that there's an NDA means that something else besides consensus building is going on and that is the problem. So I would emphatically disagree with you that "IEEE 802 doesn't need to worry about agreements like NDAs." Yes they do. They most certainly do. The fact that there's an NDA between companies in a formal SIG means that IEEE 802 cannot ensure the process promotes consensus! That said, I believe IEEE-SA has already established a precedent by requiring individual to declare affiliations, presumably as a way of guarding against the risk of
block voting. I note that IEEE 802 does not require individuals to reveal details of any discussions with their affiliations. Using this as an analogy, there might be a case to require individuals to declare any association, either directly or through their
affiliations, with organisations that have at least a partial purpose of discussing or influencing IEEE 802 standards developments. An organisation could be defined as any entity formed by formal agreement of any sort. Affiliation only needs to be declared when speaking at the mic or if there is a recorded vote. Voting in IEEE 802.11 (other TGs mileage may vary) is generally, "those in favor raise your voting tokens…those opposed raise your voting tokens…those abstaining raise your voting tokens" with no affiliation mentioned. Interestingly, this would probably include the Wi-Fi Alliance, and many other similar ITAs, which just makes the whole idea of declarations incredibly complex and unwieldy.
Maybe we shouldn’t bother and just focus on making sure IEEE 802 (or IEEE-SA) provides an environment that encourages true consensus. Hmmmm! Actually, no, it would not include Wi-Fi Alliance because Wi-Fi Alliance is not in the business of amending IEEE 802 standards. It takes the IEEE 802.11 standard and certifies implementations, and sometimes it develops its own protocols which use IEEE 802.11 in the manner defined in the standard. Completely different. Since you are defending the use of NDAs in order to achieve consensus maybe you could explain why this process needs to be done in secret, hmmmmm? Dan. From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List ***** [mailto:STDS-802-SEC@ieee.org]
On Behalf Of Harkins, Daniel Hi Adrian, I think the key is NDAs. Two guys meeting in the bar to solve a problem is not the issue. An ad hoc meeting of members outside of an 802 meeting to discuss how to reach consensus should not be a problem. Neither of these would really involve NDAs. Problems arise when the activities of the members of this group are secret.
We want to encourage consensus forming but If the goal of a group is consensus forming then NDAs and secrecy have no place. Bad things happen in secret.
regards, Dan. On 4/11/17, 11:21 PM, "***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List ***** on behalf of Adrian Stephens" <STDS-802-SEC@ieee.org on behalf of
adrian.p.stephens@ieee.org> wrote: Regarding a need to declare if you are participating in a SIG, if we were to make that requirement, we would also need a definition of a SIG. Does anybody want to propose one? IMHO this is not trivial, as there is a continuum of formality and inter-dependency, that goes from one extreme of two people meeting in a bar to solve a problem raised in a task group earlier that day to the other extreme of
an incorporated legal entity with NDAs and member agreements. And, please remember, what we care about is (potential) dominance. Two people meeting in a bar are unlikely to dominate unless there are three in their task group. Two people meeting secretly under NDA likewise. So perhaps any definition should not relate to the character of the SIG, but its potential impact on a task group, which can be measured in size of membership relative to the activity they are contributing to. Sincerely, Adrian Stephens IEEE 802.11 Working Group Chair mailto: adrian.p.stephens@ieee.org Phone: +1 (971) 203-2032 Mobile: +1 (210) 268-6451 (when in USA) Mobile: +44 7342178905 (when in the UK) Skype: adrian_stephens On 2017-04-12 00:49, Andrew Myles (amyles) wrote:
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