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[802SEC] defining when an ECSG goes out of business



Changing the subject line of this thread to be in line with what is being discussed.

------ Original Message ------
From: "James P. K. Gilb" <gilb@ieee.org>
To: STDS-802-SEC@listserv.ieee.org
Sent: 11/3/2015 3:18:33 PM
Subject: Re: [802SEC] Oct 06 Teleconference Minutes Posted
All

I concur with Roger that in this case it is clear that the ECSG went out of business with PAR approval.

Clarifying the rules in the P&P requires AudCom approval, which would then trigger a review of the WG P&P. Both documents would need to follow the new baselines that are now in the process of approval, leading to all sorts of changes.

We can discuss this in January. There is likely at least a couple of methods we could use to clarify the rules without a P&P update.

James Gilb

On 11/02/2015 01:10 PM, Roger Marks wrote:
Ben,

I suggested that the rules are ambiguous, and I still think they are,
especially when the EC motion to create or renew the SG isn't explicit
about the charter.

In the case of the Privacy Recommendation Study Group, it seems that
scope of the SG was such that it was completed with the approval of its
PAR, so I agree it went out of business with the PAR approval.

Roger



Benjamin A. Rolfe wrote:
Hi all,
I got a bit lost in the thread: Did we answer the original question as
to the status of the Security ECSG?
If I read the thread correctly, that group was chartered with a
single, well defined task to study and produced 1 PAR which has been
approved.
The answer given by Jamesi s that the ECSG is now disbanded and no
further EC action is required.
Is that correct?
Thanks

Ben



On 10/31/2015 12:29 PM, Geoff Thompson wrote:
Colleagues-

To David's argument I would add that
there is no reason why multiple Study Groups couldn't:
    - Meet together
    - Have the same Chairman/Officers
although I believe that they would have to produce separate sets of
minutes or at least produce minutes that were separable by Study Group.
But keeping to the principle of one Study Group = one PAR package
seems like a good rule.
That makes administration of the work from the EC level simpler.
(If it happened to be multiple instances of of an ECSG we have
already addressed the issue of one person on the EC = one vote on the
EC.)

Best regards,

    Geoff Thompson

On Oct 30, 2015, at 3:05 PMPDT, Law, David<dlaw@HPE.COM> wrote:

Dear Colleagues,

I have to agree with Geoff that our rules don't seem to have been
developed based on a Study Group producing more than one PAR.

The text in subclause 5.4 of the IEEE 802 LAN/MAN Standards
Committee (LMSC) Policies and Procedures that states that 'The Study
Group shall have a defined task with specific output and a specific
time frame established within which it is allowed to study the
subject' and that 'After the Study Group recommendations have been
accepted by the parent body, the Study Group will be disbanded no
later than the end of the next plenary session.'. This would seem to
allow more than one PAR from a single Study Group.

Except, as already observed, the very same subclause also contains
the statement that 'A Study Group is disbanded upon approval of the
PAR by the IEEE-SA Standards Board.' which appears to me rather
definitive, and also I note the use of the singular here and in two
sentences before which states 'A study group is expected to submit a PAR to the EC for consideration by the 2nd plenary session after its
initiation.'. I will also note that the IEEE-SA Study Group
guidelines are written in singular terms with respect to the
PAR<https://standards.ieee.org/develop/corpchan/studygrp.pdf>.

Based on these apparently conflicting statements I've personally
advised that requesting a single Study Group to generate two PARs
may not the best approach, and to request two Study Group instead.
And just the sheer fact that we're having this discussion on the
reflector IMHO illustrates the rules are not entirely clear on this
point, and that clarification may be required.

If that were to happen I do have a few thoughts. The first is how
many PARs is it acceptable for a Study Group to ask to be chartered
for, to take this to an extreme a Working Group could have a single
perpetual Study Group that produces all its PARs. I don't think such
a Study Group would get approved, but what is the limit. The second
is does the number of PARs a Study Group is going to generate have
to be part of the chartering motion or, for example, is it
acceptable to charter a Study Group that is expecting to generate
just one PAR, but then once work is underway have the Study Group
come back and ask to be chartered to do two.

I'm sure that others will have other questions, I'd therefore like
to suggest that we add this as an item for the January EC workshop.

Best regards,
David

-----

From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List *****
[mailto:STDS-802-SEC@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Geoff Thompson
Sent: 29 October 2015 12:44
To:STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [802SEC] Oct 06 Teleconference Minutes Posted

Roger-

RE:

It seems that a Study Group could develop two PARs.

However, I believe that our rules were not developed with that in mind.
If/when we have that as a case then the motion should specifically
address that issue.

In the case under question, I do not believe it is the case that the
ECSG was chartered to develop more than one PAR, even though the
subject area may well warrant more than one project. Therefore, I
don't believe that the majority of those voting on the motion were
thinking in terms of this particular SG having more than one PAR
under its development during its life as an ECSG. A major part of
the ECSG task was to determine which WG (new or existing) would be
home to its work. I don't believe that there was ever an intention
to "place" a project in an existing WG yet continue as an ECSG.
Although that would be possible, it is unprecedented in 802 and
would, in my opinion, require explicit arrangement ahead of time.

On the other hand, it is quite the usual to have a contingent
(explicit or implicit) motion to continue the SG (EC or WG) should a
NESCOM bound PAR not be approved.
In fact, this is so much the usual that we have become sloppy with
the wording of such motions to the extent we leave out the
appropriate contingency clause in the wording.
I believe that is the case here.

Once the PAR is approved as an 802.1 Project the activity is to move
in its entirety into 802.1 and the ECSG ceases to exist.

BTW, it is my belief that once the EC decided to assign the project
to 802.1, the life of the ECSG should have been terminated (as of
the end of that EC meeting) and 802.1 would take over.

There may some ambiguity in the P&P but I believe that it was more
that the wording of the motion was less wonderful than it should
have been.

Best regards,

    Geoff


On Oct 28, 2015, at 11:37 AMPDT, Roger Marks<r.b.marks@ieee.org>
wrote:

James,

It seems that a Study Group could develop two PARs. If it's to be
disbanded upon approval of "the PAR", one could ask "Which PAR: the
first or the second?" It's not unreasonable to presume the second one.

More generally, 5.4 says "after the Study Group recommendations have
been accepted by the parent body, the Study Group will be disbanded
no later than the end of the next plenary session." So if the Study
Group has recommendations (other than the first or only PAR) that
are still awaiting acceptance by the parent body, then this says
it's not supposed to be disbanded between plenaries.

So I still think there is at least a little ambiguity in the P&P. IMHO.

Roger


James P. K. Gilb wrote:

(Sorry about that, I responded to Roger only the first time).

Roger

It does say that earlier in the same subclause. Note that it is
only specific about its charter and does not say that it cannot be
dissolved earlier. For example, the EC could vote to dissolve it
prior to the next plenary session. Or, in this case, the rules
state that it is dissolved upon approval of the PAR.

However, a motion from the EC can't override the rules in the P&P,
which state it dissolves with approval of the PAR.

The EC is supposed to assign the PAR to a group, hence upon approval
of the PAR, that group has the responsibility for that topic.

I don't see any ambiguity.

IMHO.

James Gilb

On 10/27/2015 01:54 PM, Roger Marks wrote:

James,

That's a strong point. On the other hand, 5.4 says:

"A Study Group shall report its recommendations, shall have a limited
lifetime, and is chartered plenary session-to-plenary session."

and EC Motion #40 (2015-07-17) says:
"To approve the extension of the IEEE 802 EC Privacy Recommendation
Study Group until the end of the November 2015 meeting."

so I think there is at least a little ambiguity.

Roger



James P. K. Gilb wrote:

All

I had an action item:
1) Gilb to determine when an 802 ECSG is disbanded per the 802
policies and procedures.

Based on the approved IEEE 802 LMSC Policies and Procedures:

1) The Privacy ECSG was disbanded upon approval of the PAR by the
IEEE-SA standards board.

2) With the disbanding of the ECSG, Juan Carlos is no longer a member
of the EC.

Rationale:

In our approved P&P, Clause 5.4, page 14, first paragraph: Two types
of Study Groups, Working Group Study Groups (WGSGs) and Executive
Committee Study Groups (ECSGs) are listed. Hence, when the term
"Study Group" is used the text without a modifier, it means either
type of group.

In Clause 5.4, final paragraph, it says "After the Study Group
recommendations have been accepted by the parent body, the Study Group will be disbanded no later than the end of the next plenary session. A
Study Group is disbanded upon approval of the PAR by the IEEE-SA
Standards Board."

IMHO.

James Gilb

On 10/26/2015 01:09 PM, John D'Ambrosia wrote:

All,

The minutes from the Oct 06 EC Teleconference have been posted.
Please see
http://ieee802.org/minutes/Conference-calls/2015-10-06-call-minutes-v0.pdf.






My thanks to Mr. Gilb for filling in for me during a computer moment.



Regards,



John D'Ambrosia

Recording Secretary, IEEE 802 LMSC


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