David,
I would like to remind folks of the following:
1] The IEEE owns the copyright of the IEEE draft standards and final approved standards.
[2] IEEE draft standards and final approved standards cannot be distributed without the permission of the IEEE-SA.
[3] The IEEE-SA grants permission in the IEEE-SA Standard Board Bylaws for an IEEE draft standard to be distributed without charge to the participants for that IEEE standards development project. Regards, Tricia
Sent from my iPad
On Oct 8, 2012, at 12:02 PM, "Law, David" < dlaw@hp.com> wrote: All,I hope the following clarifies the approach that IEEE 802.3 has followed over the years. I've also included what I believe is the rationale based on the current copyright policy of the IEEE-SA. Please understand that I'm not advocating that other Working Groups do what we do since - for example - not all Working Groups have a subgroup per project as we do - so as always one size does not fit all. I do however support a discussion of this matter at the November workshop as Jon has suggested.Subclause 7.2 'Policy' of the IEEE-SA Standard Board Bylaws states that 'The IEEE owns the copyright in all Work Products.' and subclause 7.1 'Definitions' states that '"Work Product" shall mean the compilation of or collective work of all participants (e.g., a draft standard; the final approved standard).' Based on this I understand that the IEEE-SA has to grant permission for drafts, or standards, to be distributed without charge.Subclause 6.1.3.1 'Draft copyright statements' of the IEEE-SA Standards Board operations manual states that 'An IEEE draft standard may be distributed without charge to the participants for that IEEE standards development project.'. Based on this I understand that the IEEE-SA has provided a blanket grant of permission for drafts to be distributed to participants without charge.To ensure that these drafts are only available to participants 'for that IEEE standards development project' IEEE 802.3 places the draft behind a project specific password. This password is provided to Task Force participants as well as Working Group participants (members, observes, etc) as the Working Group is the parent body.The IEEE-SA also, once the draft reaches a level of stability determined by the Working Group, makes the draft available for sale through the shop, as well as available as part of subscription packages. The IEEE may also provide access to the drafts to other organisations, one example is the European Patent Office (EPO), the IEEE 802 EC indicated support for this action in November 2005 <http://www.ieee802.org/minutes/nov2005/Minutes%20-%20Friday%20November%2018,%202005.pdf#Page=114>.Once the standard is published, or for that matter the PAR withdrawn, the IEEE standards development project (in our case the Task Force) is disbanded, and as Pat states, the password that enabled free access to the drafts for participants is disabled. That is the only action taken, the directory still exists, the IEEE continues to sell the draft and make it available in subscription packages as long as it sees fit, and other organisations such as the EPO continue to have access to that directory through a different password.As far as I can recall I have not been requested by an individual for access to a draft since I have been IEEE 802.3 Chair. Based on subclause 7.2 of the IEEE-SA Standard Board Bylaws above, I would now personally seek permission of the copyright owner before doing so.Best regards, David-----Original Message-----From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List ***** [mailto:STDS-802-SEC@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Pat ThalerSent: 05 October 2012 01:47To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGSubject: Re: [802SEC] Provision of obsolete draft standards to membersThe 802.3 ones are in an electronic shoe box. The directory still exists but passwords that WG members used to access them are disabled. I verified that by checking some of them and David confirmed. Presumably David can still access them if needed.Pat-----Original Message-----From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List ***** [mailto:STDS-802-SEC@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Roger MarksSent: Thursday, October 04, 2012 4:40 PMTo: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGSubject: Re: [802SEC] Provision of obsolete draft standards to members802.16 maintains member access, on the web, to all versions of drafts, even after they become obsolete.David said that 802.3 practice is the same as that of 802.11, but I don't fully understand what that is. Does "retain old drafts" that "are not publicly accessible" mean that they are kept in a shoe box, or that they are readily available to members? Based on the discussion, I'm confused about this.RogerOn 2012/10/04, at 01:17 PM, Law, David wrote:All,
To clarify the IEEE 802.3 practice - it is the same as IEEE 802.11 - we retain old drafts - but they are not publically accessible.
Best regards,
David
----
From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List ***** [mailto:STDS-802-SEC@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Bruce Kraemer
Sent: 04 October 2012 20:11
To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [802SEC] Provision of obsolete draft standards to members
Tony et al,
To clarify our practice, we retain old drafts - but they are not publically accessible.
If we are attempting to establish an 802 position we need to address policies for retention and method of access.
Bruce
From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List ***** [mailto:STDS-802-SEC@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Tony Jeffree
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2012 2:21 PM
To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [802SEC] Provision of obsolete draft standards to members
Yes - what Geoff said. I believe this material should be maintained in an accessible state for exactly that reason. It is often the case that drafts contain material that is relevant prior art that is removed during development and doesn't appear in the final standard. So I believe 802.11's policy is misguided in this regard.
Regards,
Tony
On 4 October 2012 18:55, Geoff Thompson <thompson@ieee.org> wrote:
Adrian-
I believe that ongoing access to drafts is essential for another reason.
That is to provide (low cost) proof of prior art.
For example, there are concepts embedded in 802.9 drafts and standards that are relevant to the current market.
Given that much of the stuff in (especially) old standards never showed up at the patent office
and that patent searches don't seem to be all that effective, we need to have ready access to that material to avoid and/or combat patents being filed or prosecuted against our work.
The same is true for presentation archives
Best regards,
Geoff Thompson
On 410//12 8:56 AM, Stephens, Adrian P wrote:
Dear 802 SEC,
A question came up in 802.11 at the last session regarding access to obsolete standards of drafts.
(e.g. drafts of amendments that were subsequently published, and then subsequently obsoleted by a revision).
The reasons to access such old documents might be:
1. To avoid paying a fee for the published document (yes, I know we have Get802 and currently a $5 fee).
2. For historical interest, such as documenting the development of a standard for a book or paper
3. For legal reasons
802.11 removes access to such drafts as soon as they are obsoleted by publication of an amendment or revision.
There are perhaps three reasons to do this:
1. The terms under which access to drafts is provided is to develop the amendment/revision.
2. Looking at old drafts can be injurious to your interoperability
3. May dissuade members from purchasing/acquiring/using the approved document
I have researched the IEEE-SA rules and can find no statement that says that access to drafts has to be
removed at any time.
Could I have comments from the SEC members on the following:
1. Do you believe there are any IEEE-SA rules that prevent providing everlasting access to drafts?
2. Do you see any practical pros and cons to this?
3. Do you do this in your group?
Best Regards,
Adrian P STEPHENS
Tel: +44 1954 204 609 (office)
Tel: +44 7920 084 900 (mobile)
Skype: adrian_stephens
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