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Re: [802SEC] Updated LMSC OM and LMSC P&P

All-

I believe that this is all much ado about nothing.

"LMSC" is a local variable, not a global variable.
The fact that some other entity used it as a local variable is some other (albeit larger) context sometime in the past for a usage that is now obsolete is of vanishing small significance.
The only way that there could be a problem is by someone asserting during some sort of legal proceeding that there was grounds for confusion (and then having that upheld). As long as our documents define LMSC as a local variable, which they should and I believe (without checking) that they already do, I can't see how there can be a problem.
If the court system did not allow locally contextual acronyms then there would be a MUCH bigger line in front of us in court than there is. In particular, the IETF's persistent use of cute initials for things would be way in front of us.
I do believe it is worth having Bob ask the question of the IEEE lawyers for their off the top of the head opinion. I do not think it is worth additional billed time nor specific research. 

In the meantime,  Let's burn our cycles on something else.

Geoff

Geoffrey O. Thompson
Chair, 802 Emergency Services EC Study Group
Member Emeritus, 802 Executive Committee

GraCaSI Standards Advisory Services
158 Paseo Ct.
Mountain View, CA 94043-5286
<thompson@ieee.org>


On 11/30/09 5:45 AM, Sherman, Matthew J. (US SSA) wrote:

Bob,

I think it's a question of how do we want to brand our standards.  "Get 802" "IEEE 802", and I believe we Put TM after most of our standards, all of which have "802" in the name.  I don't know of any standards which have LMSC in the title...

So while I know of no reason today not to name our committee LMSC, I think it makes more sense for us to tighten our identity with the standards we created.  But I don't have a strong feeling really.  I'll go either way.  But right now, sometimes we call ourselves IEEE 802, and sometimes LMSC in our governance.  I'd prefer to use one name unambiguously.

What I had planned to do was at the beginning of each governance document establish both titles (IEEE 802 and LMSC) and then use exclusively IEEE 802 for all other references to ourselves in the Governance.

There was also a debate at one point as to what IEEE 802 is - The EC (Sponsor), or the sponsor and all its subgroups.  Right now I'm using the definition that it includes the EC and all its subgroups.  You could associate one name with the EC (say IEEE 802) and the other for the conglomeration of the EC and all its subgroups (LMSC) but I'm not planning to do that at this time.   Again, I'm open to influence, but I believe the topic was debated a couple years ago and that was the consensus at the time.

V/R,

Mat



Matthew Sherman, Ph.D.
Engineering Fellow
BAE Systems - Electronics, Intelligence,&  Support (EI&S)
Office: +1 973.633.6344
Cell: +1 973.229.9520
email: matthew.sherman@baesystems.com

-----Original Message-----
From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List ***** [mailto:STDS-802-SEC@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Grow, Bob
Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 8:38 AM
To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [802SEC] Updated LMSC OM and LMSC P&P

All:

I do not believe there is any problem with LMSC.  That is the name of the committee approved by IEEE-SA.  Project 802 is defunct.  IEEE 802 is a registered trademark of IEEE-SA, but that doesn't stop Wayne Gretsky from using 802 on hockey equipment, or others from using 802 in another product area.

We do not brand anything with LMSC other than the committee.  Trademarks must be associated with a product as I recall.

I'll be happy to ask the IEEE lawyer this week if there is a problem, but the name of the Sponsor as far as IEEE-SA is concerned is LAN/MAN Standards Committee, which they identify and abbreviate in my Project as C/LM.  I argue against any change.

--Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List ***** [mailto:STDS-802-SEC@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Everett O. (Buzz) Rigsbee
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 9:20 AM
To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [802SEC] Updated LMSC OM and LMSC P&P

Hi Matt,   LMSC was an abbreviation for Lockheed Missiles&  Space Company.
I know this because my stepfather worked for them for years.  I suspect it
is now a defunct designation given the evolution of Lockheed, just as BDSG,
which was a trademark for the Boeing Defense and Space Group, is now
defunct.  Matt, I would suggest that you do a global Search and Replace of
LMSC with IEEE-802 and then let IEEE ask their legal department if they
think using LMSC in the future will be a problem for us.  I sincerely doubt
it but it is probably worth getting an official determination just to be
safe.          :-)


Thanx, Buzz

Please note my contact info:
Dr. Everett O (Buzz) Rigsbee
Executive Secretary, IEEE-802 LMSC
7750 80th Place SE
Mercer Island, WA  98040-5912
ph/fx: 206-236-2229
cell: 206-818-4978
BRigsB@ieee.org

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-stds-802-sec@ieee.org [mailto:owner-stds-802-sec@ieee.org] On
Behalf Of Sherman, Matthew J. (US SSA)
Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009 6:23 PM
To: Todd Glassey
Cc: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG; 'James Gilb'
Subject: Re: [802SEC] Updated LMSC OM and LMSC P&P

Todd,

I'm not a lawyer, but we have been using LMSC for as long as I can remember.
I think things are context sensitive, and perhaps it could be argued that
our context is different enough from Lockheed's, but I'd prefer not to
venture an opinion.

One thing I will say is that in my editing instructions (not part of the
documents) I encouraged the use of IEEE 802 rather than LMSC just for
consistency.  But old habits die hard, and clearly I've been slipping
backwards a bit.  I guess this would be one more reason to favor IEEE 802
over LMSC for a title and I will once more endeavor to do so...

Thanks,

Mat

Matthew Sherman, Ph.D.
Engineering Fellow
BAE Systems - Electronics, Intelligence,&  Support (EI&S)
Office: +1 973.633.6344
Cell: +1 973.229.9520
email: matthew.sherman@baesystems.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Glassey [mailto:tglassey@earthlink.net]
Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009 10:05 AM
To: Sherman, Matthew J. (US SSA)
Cc: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG; 'James Gilb'
Subject: Re: [802SEC] Updated LMSC OM and LMSC P&P

Sherman, Matthew J. (US SSA) wrote:

James,

Attached please find an updated LMSC Operations Manual and a new LMSC

Working Group Policies and Procedure for posting.

All,

For reference, I have taken the documents approved last week and done

purely formatting changes to make them appropriate for posting.  The one
non-editorial change was in the section of the OM on directed positions.
There was one broken link I missed that would have pointed to a section
moved to the new WG P&P.  For now, I have deleted the pointer (it does not
change any of the meanings).  We can add it back later if desired.

For reference I have created rev's 1 and 2 of documents EC 09-006 and

09-007 (the LMSC OM and LMSC WG P&P balloted).  Rev 1 includes the
formatting and editorial changes I performed for reference in revisions
mode.  Rev 2 is a clean (final) version of each document.

I still need to finish formatting clean-up of the LMSC P&P and forward

that to AudCom for posting.  I plan to complete that later today.

The changes for the LMSC WG P&P were big and messy.  Hopefully we are now

past the phase of massive changes and can now focus on smaller targeted
changes to improve our operations.  For my own benefit, I plan to start work
on a LMSC OM revision to fix minor editorial issues, and simplify the LMSC
OM revision process (make it the same as the LMSC P&P except that it can be
changed more than once a year).  During the March Plenary I will be
accepting other EC members personal pet peeves (as long as the changes
aren't too massive) for inclusion in a catch all rev to the LMSC OM that I
am willing to run.  Please don't send your desired changes now as I'd prefer
not to stock pile at this point.  At the end of the March Plenary I plan to
initiate another LMSC OM revision for the catch all changes.

Regards to all,

Mat


Mat LMSC is a registered trademark of Lockheed a tech company as I
recall  - did anyone think about this?

Todd Glassey

Matthew Sherman, Ph.D.
Engineering Fellow
BAE Systems - Electronics, Intelligence,&  Support (EI&S)
Office: +1 973.633.6344
Cell: +1 973.229.9520
email:

matthew.sherman@baesystems.com<mailto:matthew.sherman@baesystems.com>

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