Re: [802SEC] Electronic Participation in Interim Meetings
Tod -
When we have used it in 802.1 it has NOT been for "remote attendance" - i.e., the
individual(s) dialling in were participating in that part of the meeting, but gained no
attendance credit.
I would not and do not support its use as a general method of participation/attending a
meeting.
Regards,
Tony
-----Original Message-----
From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List ***** [mailto:STDS-802-SEC@ieee.org] On
Behalf Of TSG
Sent: 13 January 2009 20:30
To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [802SEC] Electronic Participation in Interim Meetings
James Gilb wrote:
> All
>
> I agree with Tony here. If we use it at all, it is only for limited
> topics which require specific expertise.
>
No... If you allow remote attendance then you allow remote attendance.
That's not something that you get to erect artificial barriers to.
> I also think that the barrier of travel time and expense is a measure of
> the importance the people have for developing the standard. At the very
> least, all participants should pay the entire meeting fee. The cost of
> a wireless interim fee is normally less than $700. The cost of the time
> that a person spends working on the standards development far exceeds
> this modest expense.
>
So then you are saying that people MUST write a check in the form of
participation coverage. That's fine for company's but what about
individuals or is the IEEE saying that individual participation in 802
is prohibited and all must represent some formal entity.
Nice...
> James Gilb
>
> Tony Jeffree wrote:
>
>> Buzz -
>>
>> I agree - this is a slippery slope. In .1 we have very occasionally allowed dial in
access
>> where there was a specific topic that needed expert input - the most recent example
being
>> MIB discussions - but we have done it only for that topic, not as a blanket facility
for
>> the meeting. I believe it really only works under very limited circumstances - namely,
>> where the caller(s)-in are the primary focus of the discussion, rather than where
people
>> are calling in just for regular participation.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Tony
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List ***** [mailto:STDS-802-SEC@ieee.org] On
>> Behalf Of Rigsbee, Everett O
>> Sent: 10 January 2009 19:39
>> To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>> Subject: Re: [802SEC] Electronic Participation in Interim Meetings
>>
>> Hi Mat, Again I urge you to be careful of the slippery slope here. Our
>> rules don't actually prohibit setting off bombs in the meeting rooms or
>> pantsing the WG Chairs but that doesn't mean we necessarily want to
>> allow that to go on either. Just because we can do something doesn't
>> mean we should.
>>
>> Virtual attendance is very hard to regulate and ensure that people are
>> tuned in to what is going on, and is subject to abuse by those who wish
>> to employ dominance within the WG. So I would suggest that you are
>> correct that it may be likely to make most sense in the context of an
>> ECSG.
>>
>>
>> Thanx, Buzz
>> Dr. Everett O. (Buzz) Rigsbee
>> Executive Secretary, IEEE-802 LMSC
>> Boeing IT
>> PO Box 3707, M/S: 7M-FM
>> Seattle, WA 98124-2207
>> Ph: (425) 373-8960 Fx: (425) 865-7960
>> Cell: (425) 417-1022
>> everett.o.rigsbee@boeing.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Sherman, Matthew J. (US SSA)
>> [mailto:matthew.sherman@baesystems.com]
>> Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 11:17 AM
>> To: Rigsbee, Everett O; STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>> Cc: dawns@facetoface-events.com; lisa@facetoface-events.com;
>> p.nikolich@ieee.org; jhawkins@nortel.com
>> Subject: RE: [802SEC] Electronic Participation in Interim Meetings
>>
>> Buzz / All,
>>
>> Please see responses in line below.
>>
>> Matthew Sherman, Ph.D.
>> Engineering Fellow
>> BAE Systems - Network Systems (NS)
>> Office: +1 973.633.6344
>> Cell: +1 973.229.9520
>> email: matthew.sherman@baesystems.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rigsbee, Everett O [mailto:everett.o.rigsbee@boeing.com]
>> Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 2:00 PM
>> To: Sherman, Matthew J. (US SSA); STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>> Cc: dawns@facetoface-events.com; lisa@facetoface-events.com;
>> p.nikolich@ieee.org; jhawkins@nortel.com
>> Subject: RE: [802SEC] Electronic Participation in Interim Meetings
>>
>>
>> Gee Mat, Is it at least possible to actually see the proposed
>> hypothesis and metrics ???
>>
>>
>> **** Mat - Yes. They are still being formalized, but will be available
>> shortly
>>
>> Forgive me if I am somewhat skeptical of the value of this but I have
>> been talking with my counterpart at the IETF, who have been doing this
>> kind facility for years and they've cutback on it substantially because
>> they found that it was getting more & more expensive and hard to
>> support, and that it was seriously hurting their attendance at some key
>> forums. It also make it almost impossible to track actual
>> participation: something we still seem to think is important.
>>
>> **** Mat - Yes these are key issues. There is both good and bad to be
>> discussed. In person attendance may go down, but that may mean that it
>> costs less to develop standards. If it is the same quality standard,
>> isn't that a good thing?
>>
>>
>> Maybe it's OK for start-up events such as ECSGs where broadest
>> participation is a key ingredient, but I would be careful about
>> attempting to make it an integral part of our ongoing Working Group
>> sessions because of the perceived negative impact on actual
>> participation.
>>
>> **** Mat - This is just an experiment. The idea is to bring the data to
>> the EC for consideration if this should be generally permitted at all.
>> If permitted, I think it would be on be on a WG by WG basis. Note that
>> I consider the ECSG unique in that it has participation from across many
>> working groups (some of which may not normally participate in the
>> Wireless Interim), and outside organizations who don't normally attend
>> 802. In addition some participants have lost their sponsorship (or
>> perhaps never had any) and are looking for lower cost means to
>> participate. Since the ECSG has no membership (whoever shows up can
>> vote) and we already take votes on teleconferences, it is probably an
>> ideal vehicle to run an experiment with. Note that letter ballots for
>> SG are prohibited in the rules, so the only way we can vote between
>> meetings in on teleconferences.
>>
>>
>> Maybe in these times of severe economic stress it makes sense for us to
>> explore some other avenues for WG participation but I would suggest that
>> we use a metric that such participation is made reliably trackable and
>> that it require registration & fees that at least covers the costs of
>> any such special provisions. It would be patently unfair to saddle the
>> already burdened in-person attendees with the cost of allowing access
>> for electronic attendees.
>>
>> **** Mat - Agree 100%!!!!!
>>
>> We need to discuss and think through these kind of changes carefully
>> before making any significant changes in our policies and procedures.
>>
>> **** Mat - Strangely enough, there are no rules expressly prohibiting
>> this today. Traditionally (with reason) it is not permitted by IEEE
>> 802, but that fact is not written down. I agree no changes in the P&P
>> should be made one way or the other without careful consideration.
>> Thanks for the inputs!
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanx, Buzz
>> Dr. Everett O. (Buzz) Rigsbee
>> Executive Secretary, IEEE-802 LMSC
>> Boeing IT
>> PO Box 3707, M/S: 7M-FM
>> Seattle, WA 98124-2207
>> Ph: (425) 373-8960 Fx: (425) 865-7960
>> Cell: (425) 417-1022
>> everett.o.rigsbee@boeing.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Sherman, Matthew J. (US SSA)
>> [mailto:matthew.sherman@BAESYSTEMS.COM]
>> Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 9:54 AM
>> To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>> Subject: [802SEC] Electronic Participation in Interim Meetings
>>
>> EC Members,
>>
>>
>>
>> I have received requests from TV Whitespace ECSG members to allow
>> electronic participation (teleconference / Webex) for the ECSG meetings
>> at the upcoming Wireless Interim in LA. I have discussed this with the
>> IEEE 802.11 Chair (Bruce) who has no objection, and made sure that
>> appropriate facilities are available. I checked with the IEEE 802 chair
>> (Paul) who said he would permit electronic participation for the ECSG at
>> the interim if it was conducted as an 'Experiment' (with hypothesis and
>> metrics) to see if it adds clear value to the standards process.
>> Accordingly we have formulated a hypothesis and metrics and plan to
>> conduct three two hour meetings at the wireless interim that include
>> electronic participation, and will conduct straw polls at the end of the
>> session to see if the metrics support our hypothesis. We will make the
>> results of this experiment available to the EC at the March session,
>> along with other planned outputs from the ECSG.
>>
>>
>>
>> If you have any questions about this, please feel free to contact me.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Matthew Sherman
>> Chair, IEEE802 Whitespace ECSG
>> BAE Systems - Network Systems (NS)
>> Office: +1 973.633.6344
>> Cell: +1 973.229.9520
>> email: matthew.sherman@baesystems.com
>> <mailto:matthew.sherman@baesystems.com>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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