Re: [802SEC] need UC-EC second for Motion to return 802.20 to individual voting rights
Tony and all,
Sorry for the delay in responding (but the last e-mails were send when it was deep night on the East Coast).
The facts on balloting in 802.20 are a little bit more complicated and I believe a part of the confusion may stem from the difference in the way the sponsor ballot voting was mandated and the way voting was mandated for the working group. Here are the facts:
1. Voting in the Working Group
In the working group individuals gain membership on an individual basis via the normal 802 rules. Individuals must provide their affiliation. These affiliations may/have been verified. Based on that affiliation the individual becomes part of a "unit" (I am using his as a neutral term between "entity" and "bloc"). Each "unit" designates a voter and an alternate voter. Only the designated voter (or alternate) is entitled to vote on motions. A "unit" has a vote only if it has at least one individual who has earned membership while affiliated with that "unit".
2. Voting in the Sponsor Ballot
In the sponsor ballot pool individuals were assigned by the Oversight Committee to blocs. All individuals were entitled to vote, (i.e. there are no designated voters). The net vote of a bloc was then computed based on the approved algorithm.
I hope this at least gets the facts on the table.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List ***** [mailto:STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG] On Behalf Of Tony Jeffree
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 4:21 AM
To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: need UC-EC second for Motion to return 802.20 to individual voting rights
Since the voting on this hasn't started yet, and this is logically
the discussion period before the vote, it would probably be a good
idea to get the motion right before we do.
Correct me if I am wrong (Mark?) but I don't believe this is a case
of returning 8.2.20 to individual voting or changing anything to do
with voting rights - 802.20 participants still vote individually and
gain voting membership by the normal 802 rules. The difference is
that as per the UC-EC decision of <<insert date here>>, those
individual votes are tallied by the 802.20 Chair according to which
bloc the individual is deemed to be part of.
Returning 802.20 to individual voting doesn't do what we want it to
do, because 802.20 is already doing individual voting and already has
individual membership. It is how those individual votes are tallied
according to blocs that is the problem we want to remove.
If we pass the existing motion, it is effectively a no-op, because we
still won't have removed the aggregation of votes into blocs. So for
the motion to have any effect, it needs to be worded along the lines of:
"Moved to rescind the requirement, imposed on 802.20 on <<whatever
date it was>> by the UC-EC, for individual votes to be aggregated
according to blocs."
I would suggest that the mover and seconder accept the above
replacement text as a friendly amendment to the motion.
Regards,
Tony
At 00:10 26/06/2008, James Gilb wrote:
>All
>
>As a reminder, the motion was:
>-------------
>Moved to return the 802.20 working group to individual voting at the
>beginning of the July 2008 plenary meeting. Voting rights shall be
>determined on historical attendance credits per the 802.20 P&P, and
>superior rules.
>--------------
>
>James Gilb
>
>Michael Lynch wrote:
>>Paul.
>>I second it.
>>Regards,
>>Mike
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: "Paul Nikolich" <paul.nikolich@ATT.NET>
>>To: "STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG" <STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
>>Sent: 6/25/08 13:56
>>Subject: [802SEC] need UC-EC second for Motion to return 802.20 to
>>individual voting rights
>>All,
>>Can we please get someone to second this motion?
>>The motion will be decided by the UC-EC, so we'll need a UC-EC
>>member to second it. As a reminder, the UC-EC consists of: voters:
>>Gilb, Lemon, Law, Lynch, Kraemer, Hawkins, Rigsbee, Jeffree, Heile
>>and non-voters Thompson, Nikolich.
>>Regards,
>>--Paul
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat Thaler" <pthaler@BROADCOM.COM>
>>To: <STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
>>Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 2:31 PM
>>Subject: Re: [802SEC] Motion to return 802.20 to individual voting rights
>>
>>>James,
>>>
>>>I disagree regarding this statement:
>>>>It has been pointed out to me that we can do entity voting (apparently
>>>>mixed voting was done away with, but is still listed in the IEEE SA
>>>web
>>>>pages) under the rules defined by the SA.
>>>While the SA has defined rules for entity voting, it isn't clear how to
>>>apply them to have one Working Group with a mix of entity and individual
>>>voting PARs. For example, there are different membership requirements
>>>for a working group developing standards under the entity method and
>>>under the individual method. Does a Working Group with a mix of PARs
>>>have two voting lists - one entity and one individual? If so, which is
>>>used for voting on items that aren't tied to one of the PARs such as
>>>electing a chair or a directed position regarding another group's PAR?
>>>
>>>There is also a difference in sponsor operating procedures. For sponsors
>>>developing individual standards, 5.1.1 of the SB-OM says they must have
>>>P & P and can use the model operating procedures but then it goes on to
>>>say: "There are also operating procedures available for Sponsors
>>>developing a standard using the entity method of participation, and
>>>Sponsors shall utilize these procedures as the basis for entity
>>>standardization." So there are different (model) operating procedures
>>>for sponsors depending on whether they are developing under the
>>>individual and entity method.
>>>
>>>Therefore, it is not clear that the rules defined by the SA cover
>>>operation of a sponsor or a Working Group developing PARs under both
>>>individual and entity methods at the same time. Because the procedures
>>>for an entity sponsor allow sponsor voting to be by individuals, it
>>>might be possible to merge entity and individual projects into an single
>>>sponsor. Merging them into a single WG presents more of a problem.
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>Pat
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List *****
>>>[mailto:STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG] On Behalf Of James Gilb
>>>Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 5:52 PM
>>>To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>>>Subject: Re: [802SEC] Motion to return 802.20 to individual voting
>>>rights
>>>
>>>Wow, I am having some trouble typing here.
>>>
>>>In the motion passed on July 16, 2007, "shall e as" should have been
>>>"shall be as"
>>>
>>>Instead of:
>>>
>>>If 802.20 (or any other group) wants to create a PAR with entity voting
>>>or to modify a current PAR so that it uses entity voting.
>>>
>>>I meant to say:
>>>
>>>If 802.20 (or any other group) wants to create a PAR with entity voting
>>>or to modify a current PAR so that it uses entity voting, it can decide
>>>to do that by a vote of the Working Group, subject to approval by the
>>>802 EC and NesCom or RevCom, as appropriate.
>>>
>>>I am looking for a second and/or suggestions to help with the wording.
>>>
>>>James Gilb
>>>
>>>James Gilb wrote:
>>>>All
>>>>
>>>>Some corrections (thanks to Bob Grow).
>>>>
>>>>June 2006, SASB took action removing 802.20 officers
>>>>December 2007 (not 2008) dissolving SASB oversight committee and
>>>>returning all oversight to the EC.
>>>>
>>>>I verified that the UC-EC meet in San Francisco in closed session,
>>>July
>>>>16, 2007. The public minutes state that the following motion was
>>>approved:
>>>>"Effective immediately, all votes and ballots in the 802.20 working
>>>>group shall be conducted on the basis of entity affiliation, with one
>>>>vote per entity. Entities and affiliation shall e as determined by
>>>the
>>>>802 EC 802.20 OC, based on members' declarations of their primary
>>>>affiliation and other information available to the OC."
>>>>
>>>>It has been pointed out to me that we can do entity voting (apparently
>>>>mixed voting was done away with, but is still listed in the IEEE SA
>>>web
>>>>pages) under the rules defined by the SA. This may require some
>>>>clarifications to the 802 EC P&P and OM as well as the 802.20 P&P and
>>>OM.
>>>>It was also pointed out that 802.20 did not use entity voting process,
>>>>it used one based on voting blocs.
>>>>
>>>>If 802.20 (or any other group) wants to create a PAR with entity
>>>voting
>>>>or to modify a current PAR so that it uses entity voting.
>>>>
>>>>The goal of the motion is to return 802.20 to its original state and
>>>to
>>>>allow 802.20 members to determine the best course of action,
>>>including,
>>>>if they wish, to switch to entity voting.
>>>>
>>>>James Gilb
>>>>
>>>>PS: Thanks for the responses from everyone that helped me to clarify
>>>the
>>>>history and status of 802.20.
>>>>
>>>>James Gilb wrote:
>>>>>All
>>>>>
>>>>>I am looking for a second for this one. Paul N. will determine the
>>>>>valid voting pool (all EC or UC-EC).
>>>>>
>>>>>Rationale:
>>>>>
>>>>>On 16 July 2007, the UC-EC voted to make voting for 802.20 to be
>>>based
>>>>>on entity affiliation.
>>>>>
>>>>>SASB returned oversight of the 802.20 WG to the UC-EC in December
>>>2007.
>>>>>Dec 2008 SASB minutes -- "Move to (1) disband the SASB Oversight
>>>>>Committee, and (2) return oversight control to the 802 Executive
>>>>>Committee with an offer of continuing support for situations where
>>>the
>>>>>802 EC wishes to seek our help."
>>>>>
>>>>>The above motion passed after reviewing the EC motion from November
>>>2006
>>>>>requesting that "the NC-EC be dissolved once the 802.20 standard is
>>>>>approved by the SASB."
>>>>>
>>>>>The 802.20 standard has been approved by the SASB.
>>>>>
>>>>>Motion
>>>>>-------------
>>>>>Moved to return the 802.20 working group to individual voting at the
>>>>>beginning of the July 2008 plenary meeting. Voting rights shall be
>>>>>determined on historical attendance credits per the 802.20 P&P, and
>>>>>superior rules.
>>>>>--------------
>>>>>
>>>>>Furthermore, the 802.20 rules and the 802 LMSC rules do not
>>>explicitly
>>>>>deal with entity voting Working Groups (For example, what constitutes
>>>>>an entity? In 802.20 sponsor ballot, various individuals were
>>>grouped
>>>>>by the oversight committee into a single entity vote.)
>>>>>
>>>>>If we want to convert 802.20 to entity or mixed balloting group, we
>>>>>should take to the time to write the P&P to support this. In the
>>>mean
>>>>>time, I think it would be best to return 802.20 to where it was.
>>>>>
>>>>>James Gilb
>>>>>
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