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Re: [802SEC] Fwd: IEEE-SA News Update for September 20, 2007



I agree with Arnie ... .20 (or any other WG/TAG in 802) should not be given
"the short straw" in such matters.

Arnie's point about fairness and perceptions is "spot on."

Carl
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-stds-802-sec@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
> [mailto:owner-stds-802-sec@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG] On Behalf Of 
> greenspana@bellsouth.net
> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 1:42 PM
> To: Geoff Thompson; Shellhammer, Steve
> Cc: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG; amgrrg@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [802SEC] Fwd: IEEE-SA News Update for September 20, 2007
> 
> All:
> 
> I was going to wait and discuss this matter with Paul at the 
> Sandards  Board meeting. However since we are all involved in 
> exchanging views; It would have been more appropriate if 
> 802.20 were made aware of this woorkshop and even been 
> invited to participate. The false impression that 802.20 is 
> either nonexistant or redundundant results in part from their 
> not being included in forums such as this one. The other 
> reason is that some subtely lead audiences to that 
> conclusion. Aside from all of the other points that have been 
> raised, I would like the lack of an invitation to 802.20 to 
> participate be revisited and enquire as to why the IEEE and 
> or the chair did not think to include our working group.
> 
> Arnie Greenspan
> Chair 802.20
> 
> -------------- Original message from "Geoff Thompson" 
> <gthompso@NORTEL.COM>: -------------- 
> 
> 
> > Steve- 
> > 
> > Just thought it would be a good idea and (at a minimum) appropriate 
> > courtesy to notify the EC in advance if the chair and a 
> significant chunk 
> > of the EC is going to appear together at an outside event 
> > 
> > Geoff 
> > 
> > At 10:36 AM 9/24/2007 , Shellhammer, Steve wrote: 
> > >Geoff, 
> > > 
> > > Since I was one (possible the only) person who sent an email 
> > > regarding the rules I would like to clarify. In no way do 
> I want to 
> > > imply that we should only follow the rules. My point is 
> that if the EC 
> > > has some expectation on members of 802 then the EC should 
> make those 
> > > expectations know. You were expressing your concern that 
> some members of 
> > > 802 were acting in a questionable way. To me if there is 
> some behavior 
> > > that is expected then my point is just that everyone 
> knows what that 
> > > behavior is. I think Bob's email makes sense and sets an 
> expectation 
> > > that anyone making a presentation on an 802 standard 
> should make it cleat 
> > > in their presentation that all the opinions are his/hers 
> unless the 
> > > presentation has been approved by the EC. We might want to even 
> > > communicate this expectation to the 802 membership so 
> they know what is 
> > > expected of them. 
> > > 
> > >Regards, 
> > >Steve 
> > > 
> > >-----Original Message----- 
> > >From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List ***** 
> > >[mailto:STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG] On Behalf Of Geoff 
> Thompson 
> > >Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 6:32 AM 
> > >To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
> > >Subject: Re: [802SEC] Fwd: IEEE-SA News Update for 
> September 20, 2007 
> > > 
> > >Bob- 
> > > 
> > >Thanks for your input. I confess that I am a little put 
> off by "the no 
> > >rules are being broken" responses. As the high level management 
> > >committee, 
> > >we are supposed to do a lot more than "just follow the 
> rules". We are 
> > >supposed to have the judgement and discretion and do the 
> right thing in 
> > >area not adequately covered by the rules. 
> > > 
> > >I admit and realize that I was leaning a bit heavily on the "too 
> > >concerned" 
> > >side. Having said that, it is clear to me that in the 
> spectrum that runs 
> > > 
> > >from an ex-member of the EC all the way to the entire EC 
> giving a panel 
> > >at 
> > >a 3rd party for-profit conference there is a point beyond 
> which our 
> > >participation is a legitimate issue of business of the 802 EC. The 
> > >appearance of something being an EC or quasi-EC function 
> is no different 
> > > 
> > >from the audience side than a sanctioned one. 
> > > 
> > >I continue to be concerned that this event was not even 
> announced, much 
> > >less discussed on the EC reflector at all by the involved 
> parties. I 
> > >really 
> > >hate learning about this stuff via a 3rd party. 
> > > 
> > >Best regards, 
> > > 
> > >Geoff 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >At 01:44 PM 9/21/2007 , Shellhammer, Steve wrote: 
> > > >Bob, 
> > > > 
> > > > I think that makes sense and is very helpful. I agree that 
> > > >having such a disclaimer in a presentation is a good idea. 
> > > > 
> > > >Regards, 
> > > >Steve 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > >-----Original Message----- 
> > > >From: Grow, Bob [mailto:bob.grow@intel.com] 
> > > >Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 12:43 PM 
> > > >To: Shellhammer, Steve; STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
> > > >Subject: RE: [802SEC] Fwd: IEEE-SA News Update for 
> September 20, 2007 
> > > > 
> > > >All: 
> > > > 
> > > >I'll come down somewhere in the middle. I think Geoff is 
> being a bit 
> > > >too concerned at this point, but I also think some have 
> expressed 
> > > >opinions that are too loose on making things very clear 
> what the status 
> > > >of the material presented is. If you read the 
> boilerplate in the front 
> > > >of our standards, it contains the following: 
> > > > 
> > > >"At lectures, symposia, seminars, or educational 
> courses, an individual 
> > > >presenting information on 
> > > >IEEE standards shall make it clear that his or her views 
> should be 
> > > >considered the personal views of that individual 
> > > >rather than the formal position, explanation, or 
> interpretation of the 
> > > >IEEE." 
> > > > 
> > > >So, especially being an 802 officer, have made it a 
> practice to include 
> > > >a disclaimer in my presentation (including the above). I 
> don't think 
> > >it 
> > > >is enough to simply ignore that many will think someone 
> holding an 
> > > >impressive title may be delivering an official position. 
> It is much 
> > > >cleaner to make it very explicit that one is speaking 
> personally. 
> > > > 
> > > >I expect that the seminar participants could and should clearly 
> > >indicate 
> > > >that they are providing personal opinions; and if they 
> do that, it 
> > > >satisfies all my concerns. 
> > > > 
> > > >--Bob 
> > > > 
> > > >-----Original Message----- 
> > > >From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List ***** 
> > > >[mailto:STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG] On Behalf Of 
> Shellhammer, Steve 
> > > >Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 12:14 PM 
> > > >To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
> > > >Subject: Re: [802SEC] Fwd: IEEE-SA News Update for 
> September 20, 2007 
> > > > 
> > > >Geoff, 
> > > > 
> > > > What is the rule on this? Is there a rule? I know we have 
> > >some 
> > > >rules regarding 802.18 representing 802 to regulatory 
> organizations. 
> > > >Are there other rules regarding giving presentations at 
> workshops or 
> > > >other presentations? I know Roger was recently giving a 
> presentation 
> > >on 
> > > >802.16 in San Diego (where I live) at a local IEEE 
> meeting. Was he 
> > > >supposed to clear such a presentation with the EC? 
> > > > 
> > > > I think if the EC has some expectations on such presentations 
> > >it 
> > > >is obligated to document those expectations, otherwise 
> 802 members will 
> > > >not know what those expectations are, and would be left 
> guessing. 
> > > > 
> > > >Regards, 
> > > >Steve 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > >-----Original Message----- 
> > > >From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List ***** 
> > > >[mailto:STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG] On Behalf Of 
> Geoff Thompson 
> > > >Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 11:01 AM 
> > > >To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
> > > >Subject: [802SEC] Fwd: IEEE-SA News Update for September 
> 20, 2007 
> > > > 
> > > >Colleagues- 
> > > > 
> > > >This announcement troubles me. Although it does not say 
> that it is 
> > >being 
> > > > 
> > > >presented "in cooperation with IEEE 802" there is 
> certainly a strong 
> > > >impression given (especially since it is being moderated 
> by our chair) 
> > > >that 
> > > >this event is sanctioned by 802. I don't recall ever 
> having discussed 
> > > >this 
> > > >one way or the other in the EC. Even without any 
> prejudice about how a 
> > > >discussion in the EC might turn out, I am uneasy about 
> this. I would be 
> > > >interested in your thoughts. 
> > > > 
> > > >Geoff 
> > > > 
> > > > >To: 
> > > > >Subject: IEEE-SA News Update for September 20, 2007 
> > > > >Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 07:04:48 -0700 
> > > > >X-Delivery: Level 3 
> > > > >Reply-To: ieee-sa-exec@ieeestandards.org 
> > > > >X-Complaints-To: abuse@uptilt.com 
> > > > >From: "IEEE Standards Association" 
> > > > > 
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> > > > >To unsubscribe, send an email to: 
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> > > >the 
> > > > >address: thompson@ieee.org in the subject line. 
> > > > 
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