Re: [802SEC] forwarding the amended 802.16m PAR to NesCom
Paul,
FYI, if this ballot counts, I vote APPROVE.
Pat,
Here is the complete text:
7.1.3.3 Voting at Meetings
Except where otherwise noted in this P&P, approval of an EC motion is
achieved if a simple majority of EC members approve the motion
(approve/(approve + disapprove)). The LMSC Chair only votes if his vote
can change the outcome of a vote. Proxy voting is not permitted.
The following actions have exceptional voting requirements:
* Approval of PARs and Drafts for forwarding to IEEE-SA shall require
approval by a majority of EC members present with voting rights.
-----------------------------------
Analysis,
While this is in the section 'voting at meetings' it notes that PARS
have 'exceptional voting requirements', not 'exceptional voting
requirements at meetings'. This could be taken to mean (especially
given the term 'majority of EC members present' that approval can only
be in person). We may not have treated it that way in the past, so
there is precedent for ignoring this possible interpretation. But my
read would be that PARs should only be approved at meetings by a
majority of EC members present with voting rights.
I feel the cleanest way out is a teleconference. IEEE rules expressly
allow them, and our rules don't prohibit them. We've already
established precedent that they count as 'in person' meetings.
Mat
Matthew Sherman, Ph.D.
Senior Member Technical Staff
BAE Systems Network Enabled Solutions (NES)
Office: +1 973.633.6344
email: matthew.sherman@baesystems.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Pat Thaler [mailto:pthaler@broadcom.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 7:09 PM
To: Sherman, Matthew J. (US SSA); STDS-802-SEC@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: RE: [802SEC] forwarding the amended 802.16m PAR to NesCom
Matt,
To which text are you specifically referring? The text in 7.1.3.3
doesn't state anything about what can be done in an email ballot. It is
specifically addressing how votes at meetings are conducted. Please see
my email for further explanation.
Regards,
Pat
-----Original Message-----
From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List *****
[mailto:STDS-802-SEC@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Sherman, Matthew J. (US SSA)
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 1:07 PM
To: STDS-802-SEC@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: Re: [802SEC] forwarding the amended 802.16m PAR to NesCom
The text of the P&P does seem to require 'in person' votes. I would
suggest a teleconference should be considered as a valid alternative.
Mat
Matthew Sherman, Ph.D.
Senior Member Technical Staff
BAE Systems Network Enabled Solutions (NES)
Office: +1 973.633.6344
email: matthew.sherman@baesystems.com
-----Original Message-----
From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List *****
[mailto:STDS-802-SEC@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Bob O'Hara (boohara)
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 3:32 PM
To: STDS-802-SEC@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: Re: [802SEC] forwarding the amended 802.16m PAR to NesCom
Steve,
The text you quote supports no such action by the chair, certainly not
supported by the argument you make. What is required by 7.1.3.3 is that
there is a specific requirement for the number of votes to approve a
PAR. There is no statement as to whether a motion to approve a PAR can
be considered only at a closing EC meeting. If you see that text in
this part of the P&P, please point it out.
Since you copied Carl's email here, as well, I will also respond to
that.
Carl,
I wonder what P&P you are reading. I can find no limitation such as you
describe below, that requires that PARs "are considered by the EC *at
plenary sessions* - PERIOD". In fact, the only reference to when a PAR
can be considered is a restriction on when it can NOT be considered.
The following sentence is from the fourth paragraph of clause 17.3 in
clause 17, Procedure for PARs:
"It will be assumed that insufficient coordination and/or inter Working
Group consideration had occurred prior to the submission of the PAR if
this deadline is not met, and the proposed PAR will not be considered by
the Executive Committee at the closing Executive Committee meeting."
The only requirement for consideration of a PAR by the EC is that it
must have met the WG/TAG coordination requirements (as well as meeting
the 30-day advance circulation requirement).
So, while your statements below may be reason for you to vote against
the motion at the EC, there is no support there for you, at either
NesCom or the SB, to speak against the PAR as being approved in
violation of any of our P&P. If you believe there is support for your
position in the P&P, please quote the appropriate text for us.
-Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List *****
[mailto:STDS-802-SEC@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Shellhammer, Steve
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 12:12 PM
To: STDS-802-SEC@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: Re: [802SEC] forwarding the amended 802.16m PAR to NesCom
IEEE 802 EC,
I do not think the EC wants to add insult to injury. After
all that went on at the end of the closing EC meeting I do not think the
EC wants to attempt to sidestep the rule that PARs are approved at
closing EC meetings, and not though an electronic ballot.
For your reference, see Section 7.1.3.3 of the 802 P&P
7.1.3.3 Voting at Meetings
Except where otherwise noted in this P&P, approval of an EC motion is
achieved if a simple majority of EC members approve the motion
(approve/(approve + disapprove)). The LMSC Chair only votes if his vote
can change the outcome of a vote. Proxy voting is not permitted.
The following actions have exceptional voting requirements:
* Approval of PARs and Drafts for forwarding to IEEE-SA shall
require approval by a majority of EC members present with voting rights.
This motion is out of order. I call on the 802 chair to
rule the motion out of order.
Somehow, this procedure discussion got started on a private
email list. Since we are an open organization, I have copied the EC
reflector so the discussion is held in public.
Regards,
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: Carl R Stevenson [mailto:wk3c@wk3c.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 11:42 AM
To: 'Paul Nikolich'; 'Roger B. Marks'; 'Tony Jeffree'
Cc: 'Vivek Gupta'; 'Stuart J. Kerry'; Shellhammer, Steve; 'Michael
Lynch'; 'Sherman Matthew'; 'John Hawkins'; 'Geoff Thompson'; 'Everett O
Rigsbee'; 'Carl Stevenson'; bob.grow@ieee.org; 'Bob O'Hara'; 'Bob
Heile'; 'Pat Thaler'; 'Mike Takefman (tak)'; a.greenspan@ieee.org
Subject: RE: forwarding the amended 802.16m PAR to NesCom
Importance: High
Paul, et al,
Before Paul rules on this matter, as he indicated in his e-mail response
to
Roger he would do by close of business today ...
I believe that, to be fair to Paul, Roger, and the other members of the
EC,
you should know in advance that I object to any move to approve a PAR by
electronic ballot outside of a plenary session.
I also ask - actually insist - that any and all discussion - and
certainly
any motions - regarding this matter be conducted in an open and
transparent
manner on the EC reflector, rather than in the (figurative, but not
intended
disrespectfully to anyone) "smoke-filled room" of a private distribution
list.
Furthermore, if the PAR *is* "approved" in this manner (via an EC
electronic
ballot outside of a face to face EC meeting at a plenary session), I
will
speak against the approval of the PAR at NESCOM and the SASB on the
grounds
that 802 didn't follow its own P&P.
My reason for this position is that the 802 P&P is CLEAR that PARs are
considered by the EC *at plenary sessions* - PERIOD. That's why the 30
day
presubmission, the Tue/Wed comment/reply deadlines, and other
provisions/requirements exist. To approve some altered version now,
after
the close of the plenary session, by electronic ballot not only would be
in
violation of our P&P but would also deny the other WGs the opportunity
to
review and comment on whether any changes statisfy their concerns (there
were concerns from several WGs and individuals and in the interest of
due
process they should not be ignored or side-stepped ).
I am concerned that approving PARs via electronic ballot outside of a
plenary session would set an undesirable precedent and put us on a
slippery
slope that would effectively circumvent the long-established PAR
approval
process, which I believe is designed to assure that PARs are dealt with
in
an open and transparent manner that affords all interested parties due
process.
I would also note several additional procedural issues with respect to
this
matter, since equal and consistent adherence to process is my main
issue:
1) the PAR document submitted via the link below is (still) not the PAR
that
was approved by the WG - it has been altered, per a motion by Mr.
Greenspan.
2) With respect to 1), I believe that Mr. Greenspan (with all due
respect)
did not as an appointee, per our P&P, become a voting member of the EC
until
the end of our closing EC meeting. Therefore, Mr. Greenspan's motion to
ammend the PAR during the closing EC meeting should have been ruled out
of
order by the Chair. (someone else could have made such a motion, but
didn't
happen and is therefore water under the bridge)
3)also, while the document linked to below seems to contain at least
most of
the essential elements of the approved PAR form, it does not appear to
be
"on the approved PAR form" (Mr. Grow made this distinction with respect
to
the 802.22.2 PAR and, as a result, I resubmitted that PAR to the EC as a
complete and accurate facimile (a .pdf capture from the IEEE-SA website)
of
the approved, current PAR form more than 30 days before its approval and
my
WG reaffirmed its approval of the PAR as represented to the EC on the
approved, current PAR form at our WG opening plenary at the beginning of
the
802 plenary session during which the EC approved the PAR)
4) Finally, (again) it's unclear to me why (and disturbing to me that)
this
discussion - including an attempt at an EC motion - is taking place on a
private distribution list rather than in an open and transparent manner
on
the EC reflector (???)
So, why am I making such a fuss? Because I object to the way in which
the
EC, or at least some portion of it, seems inclined to selectively apply
our
rules in the most restrictive possible manner in the name of "the
integrity
of the process" in some instances, but NOT to apply the rules equally in
other instances (the particulars seem to me, from my observation, to
depend
upon which interests are involved), and I think that that has to stop.
Regards,
Carl
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Nikolich [mailto:paul.nikolich@att.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 7:30 AM
> To: Roger B. Marks; Tony Jeffree
> Cc: Paul Nikolich; Vivek Gupta; Stuart J. Kerry; Steve
> Shellhammer; Michael Lynch; Sherman Matthew; John Hawkins;
> Geoff Thompson; Everett O Rigsbee; Carl Stevenson;
> bob.grow@ieee.org; Bob O'Hara; Bob Heile; Pat Thaler; Mike
> Takefman (tak); a.greenspan@ieee.org
> Subject: forwarding the amended 802.16m PAR to NesCom
>
> Roger,
>
> I am in the process of reviewing the proper procedural way
> forward and will make a ruling by the close of business today.
>
> Regards,
>
> --Paul
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tony Jeffree" <tony@jeffree.co.uk>
> To: "Roger B. Marks" <r.b.marks@ieee.org>
> Cc: "Paul Nikolich" <p.nikolich@ieee.org>; "Vivek Gupta"
> <vivek.g.gupta@intel.com>; "Stuart J. Kerry"
> <stuart@ok-brit.com>; "Steve Shellhammer"
> <sshellha@QUALCOMM.COM>; "Michael Lynch"
> <mjlynch@nortel.com>; "Sherman Matthew"
> <matthew.sherman@baesystems.com>; "John Hawkins"
> <jhawkins@nortel.com>; "Geoff Thompson"
> <gthompso@nortel.com>; "Everett O Rigsbee"
> <everett.o.rigsbee@boeing.com>; "Carl Stevenson"
> <carl.stevenson@ieee.org>; <bob.grow@ieee.org>; "Bob O'Hara"
> <bob.ohara@ieee.org>; "Bob Heile" <bheile@ieee.org>; "Pat Thaler"
> <pthaler@BROADCOM.COM>; "Mike Takefman (tak)"
> <tak@cisco.com>; <a.greenspan@ieee.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 5:17 AM
> Subject: Re: close of the closing EC meeting
>
>
> > Roger -
> >
> > Would be happy to second the motion, but do you really mean
> 5 October?
> > If so, it can wait till March surely... ;-)
> >
> > Regards,
> > Tony
> >
> > At 07:30 22/11/2006, Roger B. Marks wrote:
> >>Paul,
> >>
> >>I have heard nothing further from you on this issue. Further delay
> >>exacerbates the problem.
> >>
> >>I therefore request the following EC Electronic Ballot, to
> open on 22
> >>November and close on 29 November:
> >>
> >>"To forward the P802.16m PAR (IEEE 802.16-06/054r4), as
> supported by
> >>the the Five Criteria (IEEE 802.16-06/055r3), to NesCom, for
> >>consideration at its meeting of 5 October if at all possible."
> >>
> >>The document IEEE 802.16-06/054r4:
> >> http://ieee802.org/16/docs/06/80216-06_054r4.pdf
> >>
> >>represents the PAR as amended by the motion of Mr. Greenspan that
> >>carried 14/1/1. The Five Criteria statement IEEE 802.16-06/055r3:
> >> http://ieee802.org/16/docs/06/80216-06_055r3.pdf
> >>
> >>is the same document considered in the motions of 17 November.
> >>
> >>Roger
> >>>
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This email is sent from the 802 Executive Committee email reflector.
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This email is sent from the 802 Executive Committee email reflector. This list is maintained by Listserv.