[802SEC] FW: [802SEC] RE: [802SEC] FW: Software and Treasury concerns
+++ FORWARDED ON BEHALF OF HARRY WORSTELL PER HIS REQUEST +++
---------------------------------
Stuart J. Kerry
eMail: stuart@ok-brit.com
---------------------------------
----- Forwarded message from hworstell@research.att.com -----
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 11:48:52 +1000
From: Harry Worstell <hworstell@research.att.com>
Reply-To: Harry Worstell <hworstell@research.att.com>
Subject: FW: [802SEC] RE: [802SEC] FW: Software and Treasury concerns
To: gthompso@NORTEL.COM, bob.grow@intel.com, pthaler@broadcom.com
Dear Geoff, Pat and Bob,
I do apologies for leaving out the wired groups from the list of groups
but my email was addressing a situation in the wireless groups
of, 11, 15, 16, 18, 19, 20, 21, and 22.
I to agree with you Bob with regards to the frugality of spending large sums
of money on anything with out due consideration. I have been working with the
IEEE IT staff on having software for the collection and post processing of
attendance data along with web based letter ballots. This software will fit
directly in the MyProject objectives. The IT staff has indicated that as
long as the package will work with other groups there would be no charges for
the
software except for only the portions specific to IEEE 802 might there be
charges.
As I have to deal with over 500 participants per session spread over 11 task
groups and 1-3 standing committees, it has become impossible for me to
manually collect the attendance data let alone post process that data in a
timely and
accurate manor after the sessions so that letter ballots starting after the
meetings can
have an accurate voters lists per IEEE 802 Policies and Procedures. The IEEE IT
personnel have been very helpful with some stop-gap processes that has save
me some time and has made the attendance more accurate but it still takes a
great deal of time and my company does expect me to do work other than
supporting the IEEE.
I am asking Stuart to forward this to the EC reflector as I am having problems
sending to that list.
Best regards,
Harry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-stds-802-sec@ieee.org [mailto:owner-stds-802-sec@ieee.org] On
Behalf Of Grow, Bob
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 2:44 PM
To: Geoff Thompson; STDS-802-SEC@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: [802SEC] RE: [802SEC] FW: Software and Treasury concerns
Harry:
I am back and I don't disagree with anything Geoff said.
While I am willing to consider another tool, the biggest time demand in our
system is entry of new attendees and contact information updates, not
recording meeting attendance. As Geoff indicated, 802.3 has not tried any
of the tools that have been developed to meet the needs of wireless groups.
I could be surprised by my membership, but they are consistently quite
frugal. I don't believe they would resist modest expenditures to support
the operation of our larger groups, but as Geoff indicates they would likely
resist and resent the expenditure of significant funds for something 802.3
does not need.
Because of my familiarity with myProject and IEEE-SA directions, I would
resist changing to a different tool or funding a different tool unless it is
myProject compatible. On approving LMSC expenditures, independent of a
directed position, I obviously have to still be sensitive to my members
frugality but will be an advocate to 802.3 for appropriate tools that are
compatible with myProject.
--Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List *****
[mailto:STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG] On Behalf Of Geoff Thompson
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 11:36 PM
To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [802SEC] FW: Software and Treasury concerns
Harry-
Your understanding is not correct.
Your statement:
"To my understanding, every group except for IEEE 802.16 and 20 has used
the stated commercial software. (i.e. IEEE IT software)
is not correct.
I can not speak for other groups but I will speak for Bob Grow and 802.3 as
Bob is on holiday. I know that 802.3 has used database rooted systems for
contact information and attendance since the 1980s. Pat Thaler had a system
based on (as I understood it at the time) an proprietary database system
available internally at H-P. When I became Chair of 802.3 I developed a
system in a commercially available database "Filemaker" (now FileMaker Pro).
That system evolved and has continued in use to this day. It could be
converted to a attendee/user interface without a great degree of difficulty
but we have not been driven to do so. Our system prints out attendance book
sheets and supports easy data entry from the books. The database has
attendance and contact information records for over 3800 different people
over a period of greater than 12 years
I suspect that Bob would be willing to go to a new more automated system
(you can ask him when he is available again) but to the best of my
knowledge, it is not a high priority for 802.3.
I don't know whether Bob would support or urge the membership of 802.3 to
support any significant expenditure of 802 funds for a replacement system.
You'll have to ask him.
Geoff Thompson
At 06:59 PM 11/5/2006 , Stuart J. Kerry wrote:
+++ FORWARDED ON BEHALF OF HARRY WORSTELL PER HIS REQUEST +++
_____
From: Worstell,Harry R (Harry)
Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2006 3:01 PM
To: STDS-802-SEC@listserv.ieee.org
Cc: paul.nikolich@ATT.NET; k.kenney@ieee.org; wpiencia@thunderdome.ieee.org;
Bob Labelle
Subject: Software and Treasury concerns
Dear IEEE 802 Executive Committee,
I am writing to you as an IEEE 802.11 voting member to object to the
misrepresentation and half truths in the emails sent by Dr Heile and Rick
Alfvin, copied below, in regards to the attendance collection at the
November 2006 Plenary session. Mr. Alfvin has stated in his email "The IEEE
system originally tested for .11 and tested by other wireless groups in
Melbourne. Although this system is currently available at no charge, it
lacks security, authentication and an administrative interface to modify
the database during the session to make corrections. The system also lacks a
feedback mechanism allowing an attendee to monitor his accrued percentage of
attendance. The IEEE openly acknowledges the shortcomings of the interface,
and has stated that this is a throwaway stop gap solution."
The IEEE IT software was and is intended to be a stop-gap solution for the
IEEE 802.11 Working Group as they were, due to the size of the group, unable
to meet the requirements of the IEEE 802 Policies and Procedures without an
automated attendance solution. This system was NOT tested and
never intended to be tested as a solution to the problems with attendance
collection for other 802 groups. The software needs were never offered for
bid to any other venders per IEEE policies by the IEEE EC and yet in his
email he states "*Note: Unless this solution is adopted by 802, it may not
be available in the future......so, if you haven't used it before, this may
be your last chance to try it and form your own opinion of its value to
802.*. No other vendors have had a chance to offer any other options and no
competitive bidding has been done. To my understanding, every group except
for IEEE 802.16 and 20 has used the stated commercial software.
I will reemphesize that the IEEE IT software was and is intended to be a
stop-gap solution for the IEEE 802.11 Working Group as they were, due to
the size of the group, unable to meet the requirements of the IEEE 802
Policies and Procedures without an automated attendance solution.
The IEEE-SA Electronic Services Group provided this software solution until
the IEEE 802 EC could come to agreement and provide a COMPLETE solution for
the problem, which they have not done yet. The IEEE IT group has also been
working on a complete solution that they will offer the IEEE
802 group for free or at a minimum expenditure as they have stated. They
have also provided stop-gap back-end processing that I believe was not used
by any other group other than IEEE 802.11. It also is tied to the
registration using the Member ID numbers of the IEEE 802 group. It was never
meant to be secure or final a solution and has been a real asset to the IEEE
802.11 Working Group in our situation and I thank them for their great work.
It is certainly as secure than the paper method we have used
for the last 10 years and it is free!
We have found that the IEEE 802.11 member ID numbers are changing on a
regular basis and the organizers registration software is not catching these
changes which are causing problems with post processing of attendance and
letter ballots. We have had 3 to 10 members with different numbers at every
session. These numbers should never change for any individual.
Dr. Hiele has stated in an email copied below "My expectation that there
will be no 802 groups outside of 11,15,18, 19, 20, 21 and 22 who will
express any interest in using any of the two electronic systems and that we
will have to handle this our of the wireless treasury if we want to take
advantage of the more user friendly Azgaard system." First of all the
treasury is NOT the wireless treasury. It is the Joint Treasury of IEEE
802.11 and IEEE 802.15.
Dr. Heile has also stated in the email below that "Please also signify
whether you will support the expenditure of funds from the wireless treasury
for the Azgaard system ( my guess is it would cost between $600-800 if it
were used by 15, 20, 21 and 22). " Mr. Alfvin states that
"The Azgard system, which is a commercial application, is being offered for
use by IEEE 802 during the Dallas session for a minimum fee of $500 or
$2/user, whichever is greater." If the wireless groups all us this software,
the expenditures could far exceed the estimates from Dr.
Hiele.
As this is an 802.11/15 joint treasury per IEEE 802 Policies and Procedures,
the members of each group must vote on any expenditure of this kind. The
Chair of the IEEE 802.11 Working Group has already stated in an email copied
below that " Well being forced to be the bad guy here, I am
informing you all the 802.11 WG is fully committed to the IEEE attendance
approach as previously stated, and to that end will be using it in its
interim form for the Dallas session. This decision is until either mandated
by the 802 EC or IEEE and therefore that is the choice that my WG is using
for attendance collection." He also stated that "Finally, under the joint
treasury of 802.11 and 802.15 I vote no for the provision of funds for this
802 EC sponsored November Plenary session in Dallas. Later events are not
covered under my negative vote for this session. ", which means that the
IEEE 802.11 group does not support any expenditure of monies out of the
Joint IEEE 802.11/15 treasury. Also, this being a Plenary session, it is up
to the IEEE 802 EC to fund such expenditures, not the working groups or
TAGs.
Finally, I, as an IEEE 802.11 voting member in good standing, object to any
further back-door politics and misinformation to be dispersed by any member
of the Executive Committee and that the 802 Executive Committee follow their
IEEE 802 Polices and Procedures and the IEEE policies now and in the future.
Regards,
Harry Worstell
Attachment:
_____
From: Bob Heile [mailto:bheile@ieee.org]
Sent: Sun 10/29/2006 9:04 PM
To: stuart.kerry@nxp.com; bheile@ieee.org; mjlynch@nortel.com;
shellhammer@ieee.org; a.greenspan@ieee.org; greenspana@bellsouth.net;
vivek.g.gupta@INTEL.COM; wk3c@wk3c.com
Cc: Worstell,Harry R (Harry); john.barr@motorola.com; apetrick@widefi.com;
alfvin@ieee.org
Subject: Fwd: [802SEC] Attendance Collection in Dallas
Gentlemen
Those of you on the EC reflector have already seen Rick's email. My
expectation that there will be no 802 groups outside of 11,15,18, 19, 20, 21
and 22 who will express any interest in using any of the two electronic
systems and that we will have to handle this our of the wireless treasury if
we want to take advantage of the more user friendly Azgaard system.
Per Rick' request please let this group know ASAP if you want to use one or
the other or none. Please also signify whether you will support the
expenditure of funds from the wireless treasury for the Azgaard system ( my
guess is it would cost between $600-800 if it were used by 15, 20, 21 and
22). A majority of us is needed to support this if we are to do it.
That
does not mean you have to use it. 15 would very much like to use the
Azgaard system since it is a much more robust system, automatically deals
with deadbeats and requires substanstially less post processing.
Bob
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 13:37:17 -0400
Reply-To: Rick Alfvin <alfvin@IEEE.ORG>
From: Rick Alfvin <alfvin@IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [802SEC] Attendance Collection in Dallas
The Dallas IEEE 802 plenary meeting is quickly approaching and we need to
determine what our attendance collection options are for this session.
As
vice-chair of 802.15, I am responsible for 802.15 attendance collection.
As
far as I am aware, there are three options available to all working groups.
1. Manual methods. Labor intensive and viable for some of the smaller
groups. Generally not a desired or preferred approach.
2. The IEEE system originally tested for .11 and tested by other wireless
groups in Melbourne. Although this system is currently available at no
charge, it lacks security, authentication and an administrative interface to
modify the database during the session to make corrections. The system also
lacks a feedback mechanism allowing an attendee to monitor his accrued
percentage of attendance. The IEEE openly acknowledges the shortcomings of
the interface, and has stated that this is a throwaway stop gap solution.
3. The Azgaard system originally tested by .15 and tested by other wireless
groups in San Diego. This system provides authentication tied to the
registration database (so only paid attendees can log attendance credit),
security in the form of unique user/password restricted access, immediate
user feedback showing the percentage of accrued session attendance credit
and an administrative interface which allows an admin to modify records
during the event (e.g. if an attendee forgot to sign in to a meeting and
needed to have his attendance record corrected.) *Note: Unless this solution
is adopted by 802, it may not be available in the future......so, if you
haven't used it before, this may be your last chance to try it and form your
own opinion of its value to 802.*
If you wish to use the IEEE system, I recommend you contact Walter Pienciak
*wpiencia@thunderdome.ieee.org* <wpiencia@thunderdome.ieee.org>.
If you wish to use the Azgaard system (my preference), please reply to this
email. The Azgard system, which is a commercial application, is being
offered for use by IEEE 802 during the Dallas session for a minimum fee of
$500 or $2/user, whichever is greater. This fee will have to be approved by
either the 802 Wireless Groups Executive Committee or the IEEE SEC. I will
pass along your choice to use this approach to both the 802SEC and
802Wireless SEC.
--
Rick Alfvin
Vice Chair IEEE 802.15
+1 585.781.0952
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This email is sent from the 802 Executive Committee email reflector.
This
list is maintained by Listserv.
Bob Heile, Ph.D
Chairman, ZigBee Alliance
Chair, IEEE 802.15 Working Group on Wireless Personal Area Networks
11 Louis Road
Attleboro, MA 02703 USA
Mobile: +1-781-929-4832
email: bheile@ieee.org
_____
From: Stuart Kerry [mailto:stuart.kerry@nxp.com]
Sent: Sun 10/29/2006 11:08 PM
To: alfvin@ieee.org
Cc: apetrick@widefi.com; a.greenspan@ieee.org; bheile@ieee.org;
greenspana@bellsouth.net; Worstell,Harry R (Harry); john.barr@motorola.com;
mjlynch@nortel.com; shellhammer@ieee.org; stuart.kerry@nxp.com;
vivek.g.gupta@INTEL.COM; wk3c@wk3c.com; b.labelle@ieee.org;
p.nikolich@ieee.org
Subject: Re: Fwd: [802SEC] Attendance Collection in Dallas
Rick,
Well being forced to be the bad guy here, I am informing you all the
802.11
WG is fully committed to the IEEE attendance approach as previously stated,
and to that end will be using it in its interim form for the Dallas session.
This decision is until either mandated by the 802 EC or IEEE and therefore
that is the choice that my WG is using for attendance collection.
Finally, under the joint treasury of 802.11 and 802.15 I vote no for the
provision of funds for this 802 EC sponsored November Plenary session in
Dallas. Later events are not covered under my negative vote for this
session.
/ Stuart
_______________________________
Stuart J. Kerry
Chair, IEEE 802.11 WLANs WG
NXP Semiconductors,
1109 McKay Drive, M/S 48A SJ,
San Jose, CA 95131-1706,
United States of America.
+1 (408) 474-7356 - Phone
+1 (408) 474-5343 - Fax
+1 (408) 348-3171 - Cell
eMail: stuart.kerry@nxp.com
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