Re: [802SEC] Software and Treasury concerns
Paul, Since Harry's concerns seem to be directed at Bob Heile and
Rick Alfvin, I would like for them to have a chance to respond to the
SEC reflector.
I'm not sure I understand Harry's concerns because this appears to me to
be a legitimate support expense for several of our WGs at an IEEE-802
Plenary Session and should therefore be paid directly from the IEEE-802
treasury as part of normal meeting expenses. Let's not make a mountain
out of a molehill. :-)
Thanx, Buzz
Dr. Everett O. (Buzz) Rigsbee
Boeing IT
PO Box 3707, M/S: 7M-FM
Seattle, WA 98124-2207
NOTE: New phone & Fax numbers; please update your address book.
Ph: (425) 373-8960 Fx: (425) 865-7960
Cell: (425) 417-1022
everett.o.rigsbee@boeing.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Nikolich [mailto:paul.nikolich@att.net]
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 4:59 AM
To: jhawkins@nortel.com; Rigsbee, Everett O
Cc: Harry Worstell
Subject: Fw: Software and Treasury concerns
John, please address the 'treasury concerns' part of this email.
Buzz, please address the 'software and back-door politics
concerns' part of the email.
I think they are two separate and distinct items that warrant
separate responses. Please provide the responses on the EC reflector.
--Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: hworstell@research.att.com
To: STDS-802-SEC@listserv.ieee.org
Cc: paul.nikolich@ATT.NET ; k.kenney@ieee.org ;
wpiencia@thunderdome.ieee.org ; r.labelle@ieee.org
Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2006 12:01 AM
Subject: Software and Treasury concerns
Dear IEEE 802 Executive Committee,
I am writing to you as an IEEE 802.11 voting member to object to
the misrepresentation and half truths in the emails sent by Dr Heile and
Rick Alfvin, copied below, in regards to the attendance collection at
the November 2006 Plenary session. Mr. Alfvin has stated in his email
"The IEEE system originally tested for .11 and tested by other wireless
groups in Melbourne. Although this system is currently available at no
charge, it lacks security, authentication and an administrative
interface to modify the database during the session to make corrections.
The system also lacks a feedback mechanism allowing an attendee to
monitor his accrued percentage of attendance. The IEEE openly
acknowledges the shortcomings of the interface, and has stated that this
is a throwaway stop gap solution."
The IEEE IT software was and is intended to be a stop-gap
solution for the IEEE 802.11 Working Group as they were, due to the size
of the group, unable to meet the requirements of the IEEE 802 Policies
and Procedures without an automated attendance solution. This system was
NOT tested and never intended to be tested as a solution to the problems
with attendance collection for other 802 groups. The software needs were
never offered for bid to any other venders per IEEE policies by the IEEE
EC and yet in his email he states "*Note: Unless this solution is
adopted by 802, it may not be available in the future......so, if you
haven't used it before, this may be your last chance to try it and form
your own opinion of its value to 802.*. No other vendors have had a
chance to offer any other options and no competitive bidding has been
done. To my understanding, every group except for IEEE 802.16 and 20 has
used the stated commercial software.
I will reemphesize that the IEEE IT software was and is intended
to be a stop-gap solution for the IEEE 802.11 Working Group as they
were, due to the size of the group, unable to meet the requirements of
the IEEE 802 Policies and Procedures without an automated attendance
solution.
The IEEE-SA Electronic Services Group provided this software
solution until the IEEE 802 EC could come to agreement and provide a
COMPLETE solution for the problem, which they have not done yet. The
IEEE IT group has also been working on a complete solution that they
will offer the IEEE 802 group for free or at a minimum expenditure as
they have stated. They have also provided stop-gap back-end processing
that I believe was not used by any other group other than IEEE 802.11.
It also is tied to the registration using the Member ID numbers of the
IEEE 802 group. It was never meant to be secure or final a solution and
has been a real asset to the IEEE 802.11 Working Group in our situation
and I thank them for their great work. It is certainly as secure than
the paper method we have used for the last 10 years and it is free!
We have found that the IEEE 802.11 member ID numbers are
changing on a regular basis and the organizers registration software is
not catching these changes which are causing problems with post
processing of attendance and letter ballots. We have had 3 to 10 members
with different numbers at every session. These numbers should never
change for any individual.
Dr. Hiele has stated in an email copied below "My expectation
that there will be no 802 groups outside of 11,15,18, 19, 20, 21 and 22
who will express any interest in using any of the two electronic systems
and that we will have to handle this our of the wireless treasury if we
want to take advantage of the more user friendly Azgaard system." First
of all the treasury is NOT the wireless treasury. It is the Joint
Treasury of IEEE 802.11 and IEEE 802.15.
Dr. Heile has also stated in the email below that "Please also
signify whether you will support the expenditure of funds from the
wireless treasury for the Azgaard system ( my guess is it would cost
between $600-800 if it were used by 15, 20, 21 and 22). " Mr. Alfvin
states that "The Azgard system, which is a commercial application, is
being offered for use by IEEE 802 during the Dallas session for a
minimum fee of $500 or $2/user, whichever is greater." If the wireless
groups all us this software, the expenditures could far exceed the
estimates from Dr. Hiele.
As this is an 802.11/15 joint treasury per IEEE 802 Policies and
Procedures, the members of each group must vote on any expenditure of
this kind. The Chair of the IEEE 802.11 Working Group has already stated
in an email copied below that " Well being forced to be the bad guy
here, I am informing you all the 802.11 WG is fully committed to the
IEEE attendance approach as previously stated, and to that end will be
using it in its interim form for the Dallas session. This decision is
until either mandated by the 802 EC or IEEE and therefore that is the
choice that my WG is using for attendance collection." He also stated
that "Finally, under the joint treasury of 802.11 and 802.15 I vote no
for the provision of funds for this 802 EC sponsored November Plenary
session in Dallas. Later events are not covered under my negative vote
for this session. ", which means that the IEEE 802.11 group does not
support any expenditure of monies out of the Joint IEEE 802.11/15
treasury. Also, this being a Plenary session, it is up to the IEEE 802
EC to fund such expenditures, not the working groups or TAGs.
Finally, I, as an IEEE 802.11 voting member in good standing,
object to any further back-door politics and misinformation to be
dispersed by any member of the Executive Committee and that the 802
Executive Committee follow their IEEE 802 Polices and Procedures and the
IEEE policies now and in the future.
Regards,
Harry Worstell
Attachment:
________________________________
From: Bob Heile [mailto:bheile@ieee.org]
Sent: Sun 10/29/2006 9:04 PM
To: stuart.kerry@nxp.com; bheile@ieee.org; mjlynch@nortel.com;
shellhammer@ieee.org; a.greenspan@ieee.org; greenspana@bellsouth.net;
vivek.g.gupta@INTEL.COM; wk3c@wk3c.com
Cc: Worstell,Harry R (Harry); john.barr@motorola.com;
apetrick@widefi.com; alfvin@ieee.org
Subject: Fwd: [802SEC] Attendance Collection in Dallas
Gentlemen
Those of you on the EC reflector have already seen Rick's email.
My expectation that there will be no 802 groups outside of 11,15,18, 19,
20, 21 and 22 who will express any interest in using any of the two
electronic systems and that we will have to handle this our of the
wireless treasury if we want to take advantage of the more user friendly
Azgaard system.
Per Rick' request please let this group know ASAP if you want to
use one or the other or none. Please also signify whether you will
support the expenditure of funds from the wireless treasury for the
Azgaard system ( my guess is it would cost between $600-800 if it were
used by 15, 20, 21 and 22). A majority of us is needed to support this
if we are to do it. That does not mean you have to use it. 15 would
very much like to use the Azgaard system since it is a much more robust
system, automatically deals with deadbeats and requires substanstially
less post processing.
Bob
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 13:37:17 -0400
Reply-To: Rick Alfvin <alfvin@IEEE.ORG>
From: Rick Alfvin <alfvin@IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [802SEC] Attendance Collection in Dallas
The Dallas IEEE 802 plenary meeting is quickly
approaching and we need to
determine what our attendance collection options are for
this session. As
vice-chair of 802.15, I am responsible for 802.15
attendance collection. As
far as I am aware, there are three options available to
all working groups.
1. Manual methods. Labor intensive and viable for some
of the smaller
groups. Generally not a desired or preferred approach.
2. The IEEE system originally tested for .11 and tested
by other wireless
groups in Melbourne. Although this system is currently
available at no
charge, it lacks security, authentication and an
administrative interface to
modify the database during the session to make
corrections. The system also
lacks a feedback mechanism allowing an attendee to
monitor his accrued
percentage of attendance. The IEEE openly acknowledges
the shortcomings of
the interface, and has stated that this is a throwaway
stop gap solution.
3. The Azgaard system originally tested by .15 and
tested by other wireless
groups in San Diego. This system provides authentication
tied to the
registration database (so only paid attendees can log
attendance credit),
security in the form of unique user/password restricted
access, immediate
user feedback showing the percentage of accrued session
attendance credit
and an administrative interface which allows an admin to
modify records
during the event (e.g. if an attendee forgot to sign in
to a meeting and
needed to have his attendance record corrected.) *Note:
Unless this solution
is adopted by 802, it may not be available in the
future......so, if you
haven't used it before, this may be your last chance to
try it and form your
own opinion of its value to 802.*
If you wish to use the IEEE system, I recommend you
contact Walter Pienciak
*wpiencia@thunderdome.ieee.org*
<wpiencia@thunderdome.ieee.org>.
If you wish to use the Azgaard system (my preference),
please reply to this
email. The Azgard system, which is a commercial
application, is being
offered for use by IEEE 802 during the Dallas session
for a minimum fee of
$500 or $2/user, whichever is greater. This fee will
have to be approved by
either the 802 Wireless Groups Executive Committee or
the IEEE SEC. I will
pass along your choice to use this approach to both the
802SEC and
802Wireless SEC.
--
Rick Alfvin
Vice Chair IEEE 802.15
+1 585.781.0952
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This email is sent from the 802 Executive Committee
email reflector. This list is maintained by Listserv.
Bob Heile, Ph.D
Chairman, ZigBee Alliance
Chair, IEEE 802.15 Working Group on Wireless Personal Area
Networks
11 Louis Road
Attleboro, MA 02703 USA
Mobile: +1-781-929-4832
email: bheile@ieee.org
________________________________
From: Stuart Kerry [mailto:stuart.kerry@nxp.com]
Sent: Sun 10/29/2006 11:08 PM
To: alfvin@ieee.org
Cc: apetrick@widefi.com; a.greenspan@ieee.org; bheile@ieee.org;
greenspana@bellsouth.net; Worstell,Harry R (Harry);
john.barr@motorola.com; mjlynch@nortel.com; shellhammer@ieee.org;
stuart.kerry@nxp.com; vivek.g.gupta@INTEL.COM; wk3c@wk3c.com;
b.labelle@ieee.org; p.nikolich@ieee.org
Subject: Re: Fwd: [802SEC] Attendance Collection in Dallas
Rick,
Well being forced to be the bad guy here, I am informing you all
the 802.11 WG is fully committed to the IEEE attendance approach as
previously stated, and to that end will be using it in its interim form
for the Dallas session. This decision is until either mandated by the
802 EC or IEEE and therefore that is the choice that my WG is using for
attendance collection.
Finally, under the joint treasury of 802.11 and 802.15 I vote no
for the provision of funds for this 802 EC sponsored November Plenary
session in Dallas. Later events are not covered under my negative vote
for this session.
/ Stuart
_______________________________
Stuart J. Kerry
Chair, IEEE 802.11 WLANs WG
NXP Semiconductors,
1109 McKay Drive, M/S 48A SJ,
San Jose, CA 95131-1706,
United States of America.
+1 (408) 474-7356 - Phone
+1 (408) 474-5343 - Fax
+1 (408) 348-3171 - Cell
eMail: stuart.kerry@nxp.com
_______________________________
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This email is sent from the 802 Executive Committee email reflector. This list is maintained by Listserv.