Re: [802SEC] Do Abstains Count in the Denominator
Pat,
I disagree with your opinion. Moreover, I am finding myself feeling
frustrated in this discussion. I find that you have responded to a
number of the comments in this thread but that you have not yet
responded to me. So I would like to restate my views and request your
response to them. This way, I will be able to judge whether you have
considered my views in formulating your opinion on this issue.
As I understand, you have based your comments below on the assumption
that the applicable P&P language includes the phrase "'all voting' EC
members"? Am I correct in this assumption?
Then how would your position change if you came to the conclusion
that this phrase was NOT part of the P&P?
If you have read my notes of the topic, I think you will be aware
that, in my view, the applicable P&P of Nov 2004 did NOT include the
phrase "'all voting' EC members"? Are you aware that this is my
position? You have proceeded as if you disagree, but you have not
said that you disagree, so I am confused.
If you disagree, then could you please explain to me the fault you
find with my logic? In particular, can you please explain your
interpretation of the following motion text at the top of Page 98 of
the EC minutes of 14 March 2003?:
"Motion: to approve the rule change for SEC Electronic Ballots with
instruction to change the text 'all voting members of the Executive
Committee' to 'all Executive Committee members with voting rights' in
clauses 3.6.2 and 3.6.5. Moved: Mat Sherman/Buzz Rigsbee Passes:
10/0/2".
I believe that, if we can reach an understanding on this particular
issue, then we will be in a position to continue a discussion.
However, until we either agree with my logic, or reach an
understanding of why we disagree, then I think we will be at an
impasse.
Regards,
Roger
At 11:56 AM -0800 06/03/20, Pat Thaler wrote:
>Bob,
>
>According to Robert's Rules, abstains are not votes. An earlier email
>quoted the specific refence text which basically says that there is no
>difference between a counted abstain and someone who didn't vote at all.
>On that basis "all voting" EC members would be those voting yes or no
>and wouldn't include the abstain votes.
>
>In any case, this was thrashed out in 2004 when the ruling was made. I
>think we make a mistake to go back and try to reverse an action of over
>a year ago by our current understanding of the rules. The ruling wasn't
>contested at the time it was made. If we do that, how far do we go back?
>
>I think it is time for Paul to give us his opinion on this.
>
>Regards,
>Pat
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List *****
>[mailto:STDS-802-SEC@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Bob O'Hara (boohara)
>Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 11:43 AM
>To: STDS-802-SEC@listserv.ieee.org
>Subject: Re: [802SEC] Do Abstains Count in the Denominator
>
>Steve,
>
>You must not be reading the words that you are typing. Let me provide
>some emphasis to the quote you provided.
>
>LMSC approval of the revised text of the proposed Policies and
>Procedures change shall require the affirmative vote of at least two
>thirds OF ALL VOTING EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE MEMBERS WITH VOTING RIGHTS.
>
>There are 15 votes recorded on the motion in question. There were 15
>Executive Committee members with voting rights at the time of the
>motion. So, the number of voting Executive Committee members with
>voting rights on this motion is 15. 8 is not equal to or greater than
>2/3 of 15. Is there some new math here with which I am not familiar?
>
> -Bob
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Shellhammer, Steve [mailto:sshellha@qualcomm.com]
>Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 8:19 AM
>To: Bob O'Hara (boohara); STDS-802-SEC@listserv.ieee.org
>Subject: RE: [802SEC] Do Abstains Count in the Denominator
>
>Bob,
>
> The rule Roger is quoting is the new rules. I was quoting the
>rules that were in force when the vote was taken. Actually, I thought I
>sent out the quote from the rules before, but here it is again.
>
> "LMSC approval of the revised text of the proposed Policies and
>Procedures change shall require the affirmative vote of at least two
>thirds of all voting Executive Committee members with voting rights."
>
> This is why I have been saying the denominator, at that point is
>time, was the number of EC members who voted. By the way, that was also
>the interpretation at that point in time. It would have been difficult
>then to base the vote on a future rule that had not been written yet.
>
> I am a little confused about the idea of applying new rules to
>votes that were taken in the past under other rules.
>
>Regards,
>Steve
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List *****
>[mailto:STDS-802-SEC@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Bob O'Hara (boohara)
>Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 7:47 PM
>To: STDS-802-SEC@listserv.ieee.org
>Subject: Re: [802SEC] Do Abstains Count in the Denominator
>
>Steve,
>
>If the P&P stated that a 2/3 majority was required to pass a rules
>change, you would be correct that abstentions do not count.
>
>But, that is not what the P&P in effect at the time of the November 2004
>session said. At that time and as Roger has quoted in an earlier email,
>2/3 of all EC members with voting rights are required for passage of a
>rules change. This does not require that any particular number of
>members vote on the issue, or whether any of them abstain.
>
>If an EC member does not vote in favor of a rules change, the effect is
>as if the member voted against the rules change. Very simple and very
>clear.
>
> -Bob
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List *****
>[mailto:STDS-802-SEC@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Shellhammer, Steve
>Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 5:35 PM
>To: STDS-802-SEC@listserv.ieee.org
>Subject: [802SEC] Do Abstains Count in the Denominator
>
>802 EC,
>
>
>
> These rules discussions are so much fun. :-)
>
>
>
> There seems to be confusion about whether Abstains count in
>the denominator when a vote is held. In other words if someone abstains
>did they vote?
>
>
>
> So I thought I would look at Robert's Rules. Here is a
>quote from Robert's Rules on what it means to abstain.
>
>
>
> 'To "abstain" means not to vote at all, and a member who
>makes no response if "abstentions" are called for abstains just as much
>as one who responds to that effect (see also p. 394).'
>
>
>
> Based on Robert's Rules an "abstain" is not considered a
>vote and is not counted in the denominator.
>
>
>
>Clearly if we start to count Abstains in the denominator it will not
>only change the meaning of a super majority but also of majority. For
>example, a vote of 10 yes, 4 No and 10 abstains would not count as a
>majority if we start to include abstains in the denominator.
>
>
>
> Of course there are rules that explicitly set the
>denominator as "all members" and it that case the denominator is those
>that vote yes, those that vote no those that abstain, those who do not
>answer, those who are not in the room, those who did not attend the
>meeting.
>
>
>
> So unless the rule states that the denominator is "all
>members" then the denominator is the sum of those who vote yes and those
>who vote no. This is of course my humble opinion.
>
>
>
>Regards,
>
>Steve
>
>
>
>
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