Re: [802SEC] Do Abstains Count in the Denominator

["Bob O'Hara (boohara)" <boohara@CISCO.COM>]

Steve,

You must not be reading the words that you are typing.  Let me provide
some emphasis to the quote you provided.

LMSC approval of the revised text of the proposed Policies and
Procedures change shall require the affirmative vote of at least two
thirds OF ALL VOTING EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE MEMBERS WITH VOTING RIGHTS.

There are 15 votes recorded on the motion in question.  There were 15
Executive Committee members with voting rights at the time of the
motion.  So, the number of voting Executive Committee members with
voting rights on this motion is 15.  8 is not equal to or greater than
2/3 of 15.  Is there some new math here with which I am not familiar?

 -Bob
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Shellhammer, Steve [mailto:sshellha@qualcomm.com] 
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 8:19 AM
To: Bob O'Hara (boohara); STDS-802-SEC@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: RE: [802SEC] Do Abstains Count in the Denominator

Bob,

	The rule Roger is quoting is the new rules. I was quoting the
rules that were in force when the vote was taken. Actually, I thought I
sent out the quote from the rules before, but here it is again.

	"LMSC approval of the revised text of the proposed Policies and
Procedures change shall require the affirmative vote of at least two
thirds of all voting Executive Committee members with voting rights."

	This is why I have been saying the denominator, at that point is
time, was the number of EC members who voted.  By the way, that was also
the interpretation at that point in time.  It would have been difficult
then to base the vote on a future rule that had not been written yet.

	I am a little confused about the idea of applying new rules to
votes that were taken in the past under other rules.

Regards,
Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List *****
[mailto:STDS-802-SEC@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Bob O'Hara (boohara)
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 7:47 PM
To: STDS-802-SEC@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: Re: [802SEC] Do Abstains Count in the Denominator

Steve,

If the P&P stated that a 2/3 majority was required to pass a rules
change, you would be correct that abstentions do not count.  

But, that is not what the P&P in effect at the time of the November 2004
session said.  At that time and as Roger has quoted in an earlier email,
2/3 of all EC members with voting rights are required for passage of a
rules change.  This does not require that any particular number of
members vote on the issue, or whether any of them abstain.  

If an EC member does not vote in favor of a rules change, the effect is
as if the member voted against the rules change.  Very simple and very
clear. 

 -Bob
 
-----Original Message-----
From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List *****
[mailto:STDS-802-SEC@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Shellhammer, Steve
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 5:35 PM
To: STDS-802-SEC@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: [802SEC] Do Abstains Count in the Denominator

802 EC,

 

            These rules discussions are so much fun. :-)

 

            There seems to be confusion about whether Abstains count in
the denominator when a vote is held.  In other words if someone abstains
did they vote?

 

            So I thought I would look at Robert's Rules.  Here is a
quote from Robert's Rules on what it means to abstain.

 

            'To "abstain" means not to vote at all, and a member who
makes no response if "abstentions" are called for abstains just as much
as one who responds to that effect (see also p. 394).'

 

            Based on Robert's Rules an "abstain" is not considered a
vote and is not counted in the denominator.  

 

Clearly if we start to count Abstains in the denominator it will not
only change the meaning of a super majority but also of majority.  For
example, a vote of 10 yes, 4 No and 10 abstains would not count as a
majority if we start to include abstains in the denominator.

 

            Of course there are rules that explicitly set the
denominator as "all members" and it that case the denominator is those
that vote yes, those that vote no those that abstain, those who do not
answer, those who are not in the room, those who did not attend the
meeting.

 

            So unless the rule states that the denominator is "all
members" then the denominator is the sum of those who vote yes and those
who vote no.  This is of course my humble opinion.

 

Regards,

Steve

 


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