Re: [802SEC] "Get IEEE 802" comments
OK John, I'll respond to your points with hopefully a less pessimistic outlook. In the first place I would suggest the fee start at $1 which sounds more like a nominal amount to the average user. Secondly, what DRM are we doing on the existing system; that's right, none. I think the iTunes analogy is quite good (maybe even better), but who is going to risk a copyright infringement charge by re-posting the stuff for free downloads. Remember what happened to Napster. The rules from our current system are still valid, and why take the risk to save only $1. The cheaper it is the less incentive there is to try to beat the system. Even if 50% of our current downloads were to go away because the $1 charge, we are still collecting $250K, more than enough to put Get802 in the black. I think we need to seek advise from some folks who know how to do these things, and not necessarily wait around for folks who are much more comfortable continuing to rely on handouts rather than !
seek out new markets.
Yes, it is their decision, but if we do some of the ground work to show that there is a good business case for an exciting new business opportunity that can grow into some major markets, then we at least open the door to the possibility.
Thanx, Buzz
Dr. Everett O. (Buzz) Rigsbee
Boeing IT - SSG
PO Box 3707, M/S: 7M-FM
Seattle, WA 98124-2207
(425) 865-2443 Fx: (425) 865-6721
Cell: (425) 417-1022
everett.o.rigsbee@boeing.com
-----Original Message-----
From: John Hawkins [mailto:jhawkins@NORTEL.COM]
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 2:56 PM
To: STDS-802-SEC@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: Re: [802SEC] "Get IEEE 802" comments
You guys make great points. But IEEE's cost allocations are whatever they are. For whatever reason (IEEE overhead structure being what it is I guess) that's how much gets tacked on to each and every transaction going thru the IEEE store. We've asked (and Karen agreed) to review that, but to be honest it's out of our control.
In a normal competitive environment, they would lose business to the Amazons and Paypals of the world and would either correct the situation, or go out of business. But, if I might suggest, this isn't a normal competitive environment.
Even if we figure out this aspect of a "nominal-cost download" program, we are going to have to deal with some sticky issues. What will happen to the download rate once we charge say $2 a download? I'm guessing we will lose 75% of the current download volume. On the one hand it's just too much of a pain to enter credit card numbers and such (granted Paypal would help). Still a tidy sum for sure, but we'll have some costs of our own to incur.
For example, anybody wanna talk about DRM? How would we keep these things from ending up on peer-to-peer networks and on university ftp servers (where they can be downloaded for free)? If we do go the DRM route, who's going to answer the phone every time somebody wants to yell at someone because their doc won't open because they bought a new computer, or they want their dog to have his/her own copy, or whatever?
Point being, the overhead charge is only the first barrier we will encounter. This isn't necessarily the easy way out we'd all like it to be.
Stay tuned to see what we find out from out inquiries from staff.
Ultimately (I hate to say it) I think we will fail to close this growing funding gap. The result will be a top-to-bottom evaluation of how 802 "funds" IEEE and what benefits it derives from this funding. I can't wait for that discussion...
john
-----Original Message-----
From: Pat Thaler [mailto:pthaler@BROADCOM.COM]
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 5:11 PM
To: STDS-802-SEC@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: Re: [802SEC] "Get IEEE 802" comments
I realize IEEE doesn't have the transaction volume of Amazon or iTunes, but since outfits like Amazon can make money off of me buying a used book for less than 5 bucks including shipping and handling from a third party and iTunes can make money off downloads as low as a $1, there should be a way IEEE to allow a download at less than $25 fulfillment cost.
To the extent that processing costs for credit card purchases is the issue, there are also alternatives like PayPal.
I also agree with Tony's comments about increasing the 802 contribution to Get802. Our attendee base is contributing enough to IEEE standards expenses. Incits appears to get along on a lot less per attendee for administering standards efforts like T10.
Pat
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Jeffree [mailto:tony@JEFFREE.CO.UK]
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 6:56 AM
To: STDS-802-SEC@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: Re: [802SEC] "Get IEEE 802" comments
Harry -
No credit card processing facility that I have come across costs anywhere near $25 to process a payment. That may be *part* of the $25, but a very small part.
Regards,
Tony
At 14:35 15/03/2006, you wrote:
>Carl,
>
>The $25 cost is the processing fee for the credit card for the $5 down
>load.
>
>Harry
>
>
>Harry R. Worstell
>Sr. Technical Specialist
>Communications Technology Research
>AT&T Labs - Shannon Laboratory
>Vice Chair, IEEE 802.11 Working Group
>Room B233, Building 103
>180 Park Avenue
>P.O. Box 971
>Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971
>Phone: +1 (973) 236-6915
>Cell +1(973) 727-5564
>Fax: +1 (973) 360-5873
>EMAIL: hworstell@research.att.com
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Carl R. Stevenson [mailto:wk3c@WK3C.COM]
>Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 3:58 AM
>To: STDS-802-SEC@listserv.ieee.org
>Subject: Re: [802SEC] "Get IEEE 802" comments
>
>I don't think it's acceptable to increase our participants' cost for
>supporting the program beyond where it is now.
>
>As I tried to discuss, but there wasn't time during the Friday EC
>meeting in Denver, I just can't understand how it "costs" $25 to
>fulfill a .pdf download. (I may have misunderstood, but my
>understanding was that was the reason stated as to why a nominal (say
>$5) charge per download from Get 802 "wasn't a viable option" to
>further support the program without increasing our participants' per
meeting session costs.
>
>As I said, it seems to me that the incremental cost of a .pdf download
>is negligible and I don't understand why simply changing the price (to
>something like $5) 6 months after 802 standards are published isn't
>viable.
>
>I'd like to hear a good explanation of what I'm missing so that I can
>understand it and we could see if we could figure out a way to fix
this.
>
>Carl
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Roger B. Marks [mailto:r.b.marks@ieee.org]
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 12:59 AM
> > To: STDS-802-SEC@listserv.ieee.org
> > Subject: [802SEC] "Get IEEE 802" comments
> >
> > Karen,
> >
> > Every time we discuss the Get IEEE 802 budget, it gets me to
> > thinking about the program itself, and how it might be improved, or
> > even maintained.
> >
> > So, I have the following comments:
> >
> > *The "Get IEEE 802 Program Agreement" says "Documents subject to the
> > wait period will be listed on the website with a link to a site
> > where the documents may be purchased." However, I don't see such
> > links at the site:
> > http://standards.ieee.org/getieee802
> > In fact, I don't ever recall seeing such links, even though I've
> > brought up this issue a few times over the years. There is a pointer
> > to the IEEE Store, but that's not the same thing; the Store is an
> > easy
>
> > place to get lost, and it does not include a list of available 802
> > documents.
> >
> > *Are sales of drafts included in the Get IEEE 802 budget? I think
> > IEEE
>
> > could do a better job of promoting them for sale.
> > It's nice that the web page has two links to the draft sale page.
> > Unfortunately, both of those links are dead, because they point to
> > ILI. ILI has not been offering 802 drafts since November 1.
> >
> > *As usual, we discussed the statistical profiles of the downloaders
> > when we met last week. However, I suspect that this data may be out
> > of
>
> > date. I say this because, when I went to download standards today, I
> > did not receive the survey form. [Neither did I receive a "Terms and
> > Conditions" page to accept.] I found the same results on two
> > different
>
> > browsers.
> >
> > Before we next meet to talk about the program budget, can you see if
> > IEEE can review the web site?
> >
> > Roger
> >
> > ----------
> > This email is sent from the 802 Executive Committee email reflector.
> > This list is maintained by Listserv.
> >
>
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This email is sent from the 802 Executive Committee email reflector. This list is maintained by Listserv.
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This email is sent from the 802 Executive Committee email reflector. This list is maintained by Listserv.
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This email is sent from the 802 Executive Committee email reflector. This list is maintained by Listserv.
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This email is sent from the 802 Executive Committee email reflector. This list is maintained by Listserv.