Re: [802SEC] EC Membership and voting

[Michael Lynch <mjlynch@NORTEL.COM>]

I have to agree with Carl and Bob. As I see it the role of a vice-chair
is to take the chair's role if need be. While we all try to be sure to
attend the EC meetings it is very possible that events could prevent
that from happening. The current rules effectively disenfranchise WG or
TAG members if their chair cannot attend the EC meetings.

Regards,

Mike


-----Original Message-----
From: Carl R. Stevenson [mailto:wk3c@WK3C.COM] 
Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2005 04:40
To: STDS-802-SEC@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: Re: [802SEC] EC Membership and voting


I have been watching this debate and I must agree with Bob ... If for
some reason I was unable to attend a plenary, I would want my Vice-chair
to be able to act on my WG's behalf - bring necessary motions to the EC
and vote on them.

As Bob points out, anything less would disenfranchise my WG's membership
and place necessary EC motions in jeopardy.

I think we need to make provisions for a Vice-chair, who is delegated by
and acting for a Chair who can't be present, to take the Chair's seat in
the EC meeting and act as the Chair's proxy.

While I have never missed a single plenary or interim in all the years
since I started participating in 802, there is always the possibility
that any of the WG chairs could be taken ill at the wrong time, have an
accident, a death in the family, etc. and be unable to participate.  In
such a case, I see no reason why their duly-elected (and confirmed by
the EC) Vice-chair should not be able to represent the WG.


Regards,
Carl


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob O'Hara (boohara) [mailto:boohara@CISCO.COM]
> Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2005 12:26 AM
> To: STDS-802-SEC@listserv.ieee.org
> Subject: Re: [802SEC] EC Membership and voting
> 
> Sorry to bring this topic back up.  But, I have just gotten
> back from vacation and dug out from under more email messages 
> than I though possible to receive in only two weeks.
> 
> The problem I have with the philosophy you describe below is
> that it works right up to the point where there is a 
> contentious issue before the EC and a single vote can 
> determine passage or failure.  That situation is not nearly 
> as rare as it might sound.  In that situation, hundreds of 
> members are actually, not just theoretically, 
> disenfranchised.  Being able to speak on a motion that must 
> be made by another member of the EC (since the acting chair 
> can't even make the
> motion) is not nearly the same as being able make the motion 
> itself and then to vote on it.  
> 
> Why do you think that voting membership in the WGs/TAGs is
> such a big deal that we have had to spend so much time on the 
> text to gain and lose that membership?  It is because simply 
> being able to speak to the assembly is not enough.
> 
>  -Bob
>  
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sherman, Matthew J. (US SSA) 
> [mailto:matthew.sherman@baesystems.com]
> Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 8:19 PM
> To: Bob O'Hara (boohara); STDS-802-SEC@listserv.ieee.org
> Subject: RE: [802SEC] EC Membership and voting
> 
> Bob,
> 
> First the summary of my opinion:
> 
> I believe the P&P clearly prohibit a WG Vice Chair designated
> 'Acting Chair' by the WG Chair from voting.  However, The WG 
> Vice Chair could have other important rights such as the 
> right to sit at the table with the rest of the EC, and fully 
> participate in discussions. While I am sympathetic to the 
> idea that the WG is somehow disenfranchised in such a 
> situation, I don't think it is as serious an issue as it 
> sounds, and don't think we need any rules changes.
> 
> Now for the details:
> 
> Please consider the extracts from the currently posted LMSC
> P&P shown below. (I don't think the current P&P deviates 
> substantially in this regard though things may change in November.) 
> 
> These clearly state that no WG Chair (even though they have a
> constituency and may run the WG) may vote until confirmed by the EC.
> The passage even makes reference to the fact that 'ACTING' EC 
> members (and a Vice Chair of a WG representing the sitting 
> Chair would have to be considered as such) do not get to 
> vote.  But they can sit at the table, participate in 
> discussion, and represent the views of the WG.
> 
> As such I would not say a WG is totally disenfranchised.
> There are some rights granted.  Assumedly in a room full of 
> reasonable people, an Acting Chair should be able to convince 
> others at the table of actions needed by the WG and they 
> would be carried out (based on actions of other EC members).  
> As long as enough non-acting WG chairs show up that we have a 
> quorum, the EC can function effectively. Since it is 
> currently rare for a WG chair to be absent for an extended 
> period of time, I don't think we need ever worry about the EC 
> being unable to conduct business due to unavailability of a 
> large number of chairs. 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Mat
> 
> ------------------------------------------
> Extracts from Posted LMSC P&P
> ------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 7.1.2 Membership
> 
> ....
> 
> In addition, the Executive Committee includes the following non-voting
> members:
> 
> 	Chairs of Hibernating Working Groups. 
> 	Appointed WG or TAG Chairs 
> 	Acting positions 
> 		(prior to the close of the plenary meeting 
> 		where appointed or elected)
> 
> All appointed and elected positions become effective at the
> end of the plenary session where the appointment/ election 
> occurs. Prior to the end of that plenary session, such 
> persons filling vacancies are considered 'Acting', and do not 
> vote. Persons who are succeeding someone that currently holds 
> the position do not acquire any EC rights until the close of 
> the plenary session.
> 
> ...
> 
> In case an election or appointment is not confirmed by the
> EC, the person last holding the position will continue to 
> serve until confirmation of an election or appointment are achieved.
> 
> Matthew Sherman, Ph.D.
> Senior Member Technical Staff
> BAE SYSTEMS, CNIR
> Office: +1 973.633.6344
> email: matthew.sherman@baesystems.com
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob O'Hara (boohara) [mailto:boohara@CISCO.COM]
> Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 6:56 PM
> To: STDS-802-SEC@listserv.ieee.org
> Subject: Re: [802SEC] EC Membership and voting
> 
> Paul,
> 
> The "kerfuffle", as you say, and what is broken is that while
> Stuart is on vacation, for the next six weeks, 500 voting 
> members and an unholy number of members that are not yet 
> voting members of 802.11 have no voice in the EC.  This 
> essentially disenfranchises those members.
> 
> Why should that be allowed, when the possibility to deal with
> it simply is available?  Why should a chair not be allowed to 
> designate someone to act in his/her stead, when the need 
> arises?  The current LMSC P&P does not prohibit that.
> 
> Presumably, we in the EC have confirmed that a vote was taken
> according to required procedures when we confirm the election 
> of a chair.  That confirmation is not a confirmation that 
> "joe is in the club (the EC)".
> Joe is in the club because the election of his WG/TAG put him 
> there.  It is the WG/TAG that chooses who is in the EC, not 
> us (well, except for the appointed positions).
> 
> If that chair is operating with the consent of the WG and the
> chair designates someone to proxy for him for a reason and 
> for a temporary period, who are we to say the WG and chair 
> cannot do that?
> 
> When a chair "passes the gavel" during a meeting, the person
> now holding that gavel is the chair.  How is this different?
> 
> 
>  -Bob
>  
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Nikolich [mailto:paul.nikolich@ATT.NET]
> Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 3:37 PM
> To: STDS-802-SEC@listserv.ieee.org
> Subject: [802SEC] EC Membership and voting
> 
> Dear EC members,
> 
> The right to cast an EC vote is held by specific EC members
> is defined in the P&P.  Gaining EC membership is defined in the P&P.
> 
> I don't understand the kerfuffle surrounding this topic.  In
> my view nothing is broken in the P&P on this topic--let's not 
> try to fix it.
> 
> --Paul
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Pat Thaler" <pat_thaler@AGILENT.COM>
> To: <STDS-802-SEC@listserv.ieee.org>
> Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 4:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [802SEC] EC Membership and voting
> 
> 
> > And here is the message with my view on the subject:
> >
> > The rules are clear. The voting position on the Exec belongs to the
> > Working Group chair (once confirmed or appointed).
> >
> > If you want to change that, it would require a rules change. I would
> be
> > against such a rules change. I think consistency/continuity in our
> > membership is important. If it was officially stated that the vote
> could
> > be used by a vice chair in place of the chair, I'm concerned that
> Chairs
> > might fairly regularly send their vice chair to the EC in
> their place
> > which would lose continuity.
> >
> > With the rules as they are, we get very good Working Group Chair
> > attendance.
> >
> > By the way, I also think that if we must continue this
> discussion, it
> > should move to the EC reflector where it is visible. We have drifted
> well
> > off the contract matters that required private discussion.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Pat
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Bob O'Hara (boohara) [mailto:boohara@CISCO.COM]
> > Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 1:32 PM
> > To: STDS-802-SEC@listserv.ieee.org
> > Subject: [802SEC] EC Membership and voting
> >
> > Taking this to the reflector for more open discussion of the issue.
> >
> > This is a very important issue and needs to be discussed.  I don't
> think
> > that precedent is sufficient to "decide" this matter.
> >
> > I disagree with all that have said that membership on the EC is held
> by
> > an individual.  It is not.  Membership in 802 is a right held by 
> > individual.  Membership on the EC is held by a position.  No
> individual
> > is selected by any means for membership on the EC.  Individual 802 
> > members are selected for a position, either by their WG/TAG or by 
> > confirmation of an appointment by the LMSC chair.  It is
> the position
> > that holds the voting right on the EC, not the individual.  Clause
> 7.1.2
> > in the P&P is very clear on this point.
> >
> > A simple example will serve to illustrate this.  I am currently the 
> > Recording Secretary and able to vote in the EC.  If I were to resign

> > that position, even though I am still an individual member
> of 802 and
> > 802.11, I would no longer be able to vote in the EC.  The
> confirmation
> > of my appointment to the position of Recording Secretary
> made me able
> to
> > vote, not the fact that I, as an individual, was confirmed as an 
> > abstract "member of the EC".
> >
> > The P&P discuss "succession" in only one specific case, when an
> election
> > or appointment is not confirmed by the EC.  It does not
> apply to this
> > situation.
> >
> > If a WG/TAG chair has their own P&P allow them the power to appoint 
> > someone to act in their absence or incapacity and our P&P are silent
> on
> > the topic, is that appointed person now the "chair" for all intents
> and
> > purposes under our P&P?
> >
> > I would say we are in an ambiguous situation.  Precedent
> may make one
> > feel comfortable.  But, it is not a defense for an appeal and it is
> not
> > sufficient to close this issue.
> >
> > Personally, I think that an elected chair should be able to
> have their
> > WG/TAG represented on the EC in their absence or incapacity.  Why
> would
> > we want anything different?  Do we really want to silence a
> WG of more
> > than 500 voting members, simply because the chair is on vacation?
> >
> > -Bob
> >
> > Bob O'Hara
> > Cisco Systems - WNBU
> >
> > Phone:  +1 408 853 5513
> > Mobile: +1 408 218 4025
> >
> >
> > ----------
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> This
> > list is maintained by Listserv.
> >
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