RE: [802SEC] Final CD-ROM content
For me, this discussion is the final nail in the coffin for the process of
ISO-izing our standards.
We are getting marginal benefit from the process, causing ourselves extra
work to achieve it, and in the process, creating difficulties for ourselves
with regard to our control of the end product. THIS IS COMPLETELY CRAZY.
Regards,
Tony
At 17:32 13/10/2003 -0700, Bob O'Hara wrote:
>Geoff,
>
>We are working against the clock here. Time is very short, if we want
>to publish and distribute this CD-ROM in Albuquerque. This must be
>resolved immediately. Perhaps there should be a discussion and draft
>agreement prepared in Albuquerque for future CD-ROMs. Will you take
>that up?
>
>Regarding the ISO/IEC version of documents, there was not a problem with
>the 802.3 standard, for obvious reasons. It was several other standards
>that had to have their ISO/IEC versions replaced with IEEE versions.
>Unless IEEE has relatively unfettered copyright to the ISO/IEC versions,
>we probably need to get agreement from ISO/IEC to publish their
>documents on our CD-ROM. I don't think that is what you are suggesting.
>Is it?
>
> -Bob
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Geoff Thompson [mailto:gthompso@nortelnetworks.com]
>Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 4:57 PM
>To: Bob O'Hara
>Cc: stds-802-sec@ieee.org; pat_thaler@agilent.com; Geoff Thompson;
>y.hosang@ieee.org; j.t.walker@ieee.org; millardo@dominetsystems.com;
>p.nikolich@ieee.org; robinson_gary@emc.com
>Subject: RE: [802SEC] Final CD-ROM content
>
>
>Bob-
>
>I think it would be completely fair to say here that we do not have an
>agreement with respect to CD-ROMs and "Editions"
>That is, there is no agreement that they are out (I don't think the SEC
>thinks they have signed up to this)
>There is no agreement that they are in (It is obvious that Yvette and
>Jerry
>don't think they have signed up for this).
>
>The CD-ROM has always operated on the edge (I think everyone will admit)
>of
>what staff could put up with.
>
>802 pushed very hard because it strongly felt that it was to the
>functional
>advantage of 802 to get the material into the hands of the developers
>-AND-
>there was some support from staff to reduce the printing cost of
>material
>distributed at no charge to the 802 membership.
>
>About the business with ISO/IEC. I have certainly not been party to any
>agreement that modifies the original agreement regarding 802 standards.
>The
>current agreement wrt 802.3 Standards is that there is no separate
>ISO/IEC
>publication until the standards match!
>
>As the one who put the original CD-ROM together in face of larger
>obstacles
>than this, I am not willing to say our hands are tied here.
>
>Geoff
>
>At 03:47 PM 10/13/2003 -0700, Bob O'Hara wrote:
> >Geoff, Pat,
> >
> >I think our hands are tied here. If I understand it correctly, there
>is
> >an agreement between IEEE and 802 that limits the distribution of the
> >"editions" that are not approved, balloted standards. I know that the
> >"editions" will not appear in the "Get IEEE 802" program. But, I was
> >not aware that the agreement extended to the 802 CD-ROM. My discussion
> >with Yvette and Jerry made it clear that their understanding of the
> >agreement is that the "editions" are available only for sale and for
> >distribution to the WG chairs and editors.
> >
> >We are also prevented from redistributing the ISO/IEC versions of our
> >own standards, by agreement between IEEE and ISO/IEC if I understand
> >correctly. The fact that we have distributed the ISO/IEC versions on
> >past CD-ROMs is not going to hold any water, today.
> >
> >If we always want to be able to distribute the latest versions of our
> >documents on the CD-ROM, I would think that 802's only course of action
> >would be to stop forwarding new and revised standards and amendments to
> >ISO/IEC, and to conduct revision ballots frequently, as does 802.3, to
> >obviate the need for the "editions".
> >
> > -Bob
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: pat_thaler@agilent.com [mailto:pat_thaler@agilent.com]
> >Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 3:01 PM
> >To: gthompso@nortelnetworks.com; Bob O'Hara
> >Cc: stds-802-sec@ieee.org; y.hosang@ieee.org; j.t.walker@ieee.org;
> >millardo@dominetsystems.com
> >Subject: RE: [802SEC] Final CD-ROM content
> >
> >
> >I agree very much with what Geoff said. We have just been balloting
> >additions to IEEE 802.3 which operate on text originally from 802.3
>with
> >changes from 802.3ae (which hasn't been integrated yet into an
>edition).
> >It is significantly extra work to have to be comparing between the
>three
> >documents all the time. Once the consolidated edition is available, we
> >should make it available to our voters.
> >
> >Regards,
> >Pat
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Geoff Thompson [mailto:gthompso@nortelnetworks.com]
> >Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 2:28 PM
> >To: Bob O'Hara
> >Cc: stds-802-sec@ieee.org; y.hosang@ieee.org; j.t.walker@ieee.org;
> >millardo@dominetsystems.com
> >Subject: Re: [802SEC] Final CD-ROM content
> >
> >
> >
> >Bob-
> >
> >I have a big problem with this.
> >
> >All of the ISO/IEC version of 802 Standards have always been
>distributed
> >in
> >the past. They have always been a joint publication. The issue of
> >something
> >being an ISO standard but only an IEEE "edition" has never been an
>issue
> >or
> >a barrier.
> >
> >Also, 802 voters should not be burdened with the extra work of flipping
> >back and forth between multiple documents when referring to the current
> >standard in order to formulate their ballot comments.
> >
> >The work that they do on responsible review of our drafts is already
> >onerous enough. Both by virtue of the size of the drafts and the size
>of
> >
> >the established standards that they have to judge for technical
> >integration.
> >
> >Bottom line, I think this is a bad idea in that (1) it takes away
> >something
> >we had in the past and (2) is counterproductive to good standards
> >development.
> >
> >Geoff
> >
> >
> >At 01:55 PM 10/13/2003 -0700, Bob O'Hara wrote:
> >
> > >After discussion with Jerry and Yvette, I have revised the content of
> > >the CD-ROM to contain only IEEE versions of documents, since IEEE
>does
> > >not have the right to allow us to redistribute the ISO/IEC documents.
> >I
> > >have also removed the "editions" of the 802.1Q and 802.11-1999
> > >documents, since these are not approved standards and the agreement
> >with
> > >802 is only for chairs and editors to have these documents without
> > >purchasing them.
> > >
> > >Please review the content of the CD-ROM, below. Get back in touch
>with
> > >me before close of business today, Pacific Daylight Time, if there is
> > >something missing from the list. I will be burning the master CD-R
> > >tonight and sending it to be reproduced tomorrow. This is your last
> > >chance.
> > >
> > >Also, my apologies to Roger. I did receive updated information for
>the
> > >CD-ROM for 802.16 and did not mention it in my earlier email.
> > >
> > > -Bob
> > >
> > >Bob O'Hara
> > >Airespace, Inc.
> > >110 Nortech Parkway
> > >San Jose, CA 95134-2307
> > >
> > >Phone: +1 408 635 2025
> > >Mobile: +1 408 218 4025
> > >Fax: +1 408 635 2020
> > >email: bob@airespace.com
> > >
> > >The list:
> > >
> > >
> > >802-Stds\OPRULES\802 overview 2002r1.pdf
> > >802-Stds\OPRULES\INDEX.HTML
> > >802-Stds\OPRULES\OVERVIEW2000.PDF
> > >802-Stds\OPRULES\rules.pdf
> > >
> > >802-Stds\DOT_0\802-2001.pdf
> > >802-Stds\DOT_0\802a-2003.pdf
> > >802-Stds\DOT_0\INDEX.HTML
> > >
> > >802-Stds\DOT_1\802.1B-1995.pdf
> > >802-Stds\DOT_1\802.1E-1994.pdf
> > >802-Stds\DOT_1\802.1G-1998.pdf
> > >802-Stds\DOT_1\802.1H-1997.pdf
> > >802-Stds\DOT_1\802.1Q-1998.pdf
> > >802-Stds\DOT_1\802.1s-2002.pdf
> > >802-Stds\DOT_1\802.1t-2001.pdf
> > >802-Stds\DOT_1\802.1u-2001.pdf
> > >802-Stds\DOT_1\802.1v-2001.pdf
> > >802-Stds\DOT_1\802_1D-1998.PDF
> > >802-Stds\DOT_1\802_1F-1993.PDF
> > >802-Stds\DOT_1\802_1Q-1998.PDF
> > >802-Stds\DOT_1\802_1W-2001.pdf
> > >802-Stds\DOT_1\802_1X-2001.pdf
> > >802-Stds\DOT_1\INDEX.HTML
> > >
> > >802-Stds\DOT_2\802.2-1998.pdf
> > >802-Stds\DOT_2\INDEX.HTML
> > >
> > >802-Stds\DOT_3\1802.3-2001.pdf
> > >802-Stds\DOT_3\802.3-2002.pdf
> > >802-Stds\DOT_3\802.3ae-2002.pdf
> > >802-Stds\DOT_3\802.3af-2003.pdf
> > >802-Stds\DOT_3\802.3aj-2003.pdf
> > >802-Stds\DOT_3\802_3_FILES\DISTORTION-M.TXT
> > >802-Stds\DOT_3\802_3_FILES\IEEE8023-LAG-MIB.TXT
> > >802-Stds\DOT_3\802_3_FILES\INDEX.HTML
> > >802-Stds\DOT_3\802_3_FILES\SINEFIT-M.TXT
> > >802-Stds\DOT_3\802_3_FILES\TABLE40_1.TXT
> > >802-Stds\DOT_3\802_3_FILES\TABLE40_10.TXT
> > >802-Stds\DOT_3\802_3_FILES\TABLE40_11.TXT
> > >802-Stds\DOT_3\802_3_FILES\TABLE40_2.TXT
> > >
> > >802-Stds\DOT_5\802.5-1998.pdf
> > >802-Stds\DOT_5\802.5r_and_802.5j-1998.pdf
> > >802-Stds\DOT_5\802.5t-2000.PDF
> > >802-Stds\DOT_5\802.5v-2001.pdf
> > >802-Stds\DOT_5\802.5W-2000.pdf
> > >802-Stds\DOT_5\INDEX.HTML802-Stds\DOT_10\802.10-1998.PDF
> > >
> > >802-Stds\DOT_10\802.10a-1999.PDF
> > >802-Stds\DOT_10\802.10c-1998.PDF
> > >802-Stds\DOT_10\INDEX.HTML
> > >
> > >802-Stds\DOT_11\802.11-1999.pdf
> > >802-Stds\DOT_11\802.11a-1999.PDF
> > >802-Stds\DOT_11\802.11b-1999.PDF
> > >802-Stds\DOT_11\802.11b-1999_Cor1-2001.pdf
> > >802-Stds\DOT_11\802.11d-2001.pdf
> > >802-Stds\DOT_11\802.11F-2003.pdf
> > >802-Stds\DOT_11\802.11g-2003.pdf
> > >802-Stds\DOT_11\802_11_FILES
> > >802-Stds\DOT_11\INDEX.HTML
> > >802-Stds\DOT_11\802_11_FILES\802_11.EXE
> > >802-Stds\DOT_11\802_11_FILES\dot11mib with 11a 11b and 11d.txt
> > >802-Stds\DOT_11\802_11_FILES\INDEX.HTML
> > >802-Stds\DOT_11\802_11_FILES\SDL-AP_FILES.ZIP
> > >802-Stds\DOT_11\802_11_FILES\SDL-MACMIB_FILES.ZIP
> > >802-Stds\DOT_11\802_11_FILES\SDL-STA_FILES.ZIP
> > >802-Stds\DOT_11\802_11_FILES\SDT_Files.ZIP
> > >
> > >802-Stds\DOT_15\802.15.1-2002.pdf
> > >802-Stds\DOT_15\802.15.2.pdf
> > >802-Stds\DOT_15\802.15.3-2003.pdf
> > >802-Stds\DOT_15\802.15.4.pdf
> > >802-Stds\DOT_15\INDEX.HTML
> > >
> > >802-Stds\DOT_16\802.16-2001.pdf
> > >802-Stds\DOT_16\802.16.2-2001.pdf
> > >802-Stds\DOT_16\802.16a-2003.pdf
> > >802-Stds\DOT_16\802.16c-2002.pdf
> > >802-Stds\DOT_16\802.16_Conformance01-2003.pdf
> > >802-Stds\DOT_16\INDEX.HTML
> > >
> > >802-Stds\obsolete\DOT_0\802-1990.PDF
> > >802-Stds\obsolete\DOT_0\INDEX.HTML
> > >
> > >802-Stds\obsolete\DOT_3\1802.3-1991.PDF
> > >802-Stds\obsolete\DOT_3\INDEX.HTML
> > >
> > >802-Stds\withdrawn\DOT_4\802.4b-1992.pdf
> > >802-Stds\withdrawn\DOT_4\802.4h-1997.pdf
> > >802-Stds\withdrawn\DOT_4\8802-4-1990.PDF
> > >802-Stds\withdrawn\DOT_4\INDEX.HTML
> > >
> > >802-Stds\withdrawn\DOT_12\802.12C-1998.PDF
> > >802-Stds\withdrawn\DOT_12\8802-12-1998.PDF
> > >802-Stds\withdrawn\DOT_12\INDEX.HTML
> > >
> > >802-Stds\withdrawn\DOT_6\802.6-1994.pdf
> > >802-Stds\withdrawn\DOT_6\802.6ch-1993.PDF
> > >802-Stds\withdrawn\DOT_6\802.6j-1995.PDF
> > >802-Stds\withdrawn\DOT_6\802.6k-1992.PDF
> > >802-Stds\withdrawn\DOT_6\INDEX.HTML
> > >
> > >802-Stds\withdrawn\DOT_7\802.7-1989.pdf
> > >802-Stds\withdrawn\DOT_7\INDEX.HTML
> > >
> > >802-Stds\withdrawn\DOT_9\802.9-1994.pdf
> > >802-Stds\withdrawn\DOT_9\802.9A-1995.PDF
> > >802-Stds\withdrawn\DOT_9\802.9C-1995.PDF
> > >802-Stds\withdrawn\DOT_9\802.9D-1995.PDF
> > >802-Stds\withdrawn\DOT_9\INDEX.HTML
> > >
> > >
Regards,
Tony